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Subject: "Well, That Worked dep't"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Conferences Symphony of the Sword Topic #335
Reading Topic #335
Gryphonadmin
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May-11-13, 05:50 PM (EDT)
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"Well, That Worked dep't"
 
   At one point in the responses to S5M2 Clarion Call, this exchange appeared:

>>I -liked- this one, don't get me wrong, but I sincerely hope the next
>>installment comes out soon. I think it will lose a lot of impact
>>otherwise.
>
>Welp, guess I better get to work, then.

... so that happened...

Although, upon reflection, I'm not actually sure First Dates and Firefights could have happened before now. Certainly it couldn't in the form that it's ultimately taken, so then the question becomes whether it could've taken place in any other form, one that would have been possible within only a few months of Clarion Call. That's much too far into woo-woo philosophical territory for me to try and answer, but it's an interesting question to pose even without undertaking to answer it.

Ah, well. It is what it is...

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Well, That Worked dep't Meagen May-11-13 1
     RE: Well, That Worked dep't Gryphonadmin May-11-13 2
  RE: Well, That Worked dep't BeardedFerret May-11-13 3
     RE: Well, That Worked dep't Gryphonadmin May-11-13 4
         RE: Well, That Worked dep't zwol May-11-13 5
             RE: Well, That Worked dep't Gryphonadmin May-11-13 6
                 RE: Well, That Worked dep't zwol May-11-13 7
                 RE: Well, That Worked dep't twipper May-12-13 9
                     RE: Well, That Worked dep't Gryphonadmin May-12-13 10
                     RE: Well, That Worked dep't JeanneHedge May-12-13 11
                         RE: Well, That Worked dep't Gryphonadmin May-12-13 12
                             RE: Well, That Worked dep't simonz May-12-13 13
                             RE: Well, That Worked dep't BeardedFerret May-13-13 14
                             RE: Well, That Worked dep't The Traitor May-13-13 15
                                 RE: Well, That Worked dep't twipper May-13-13 16
                             RE: Well, That Worked dep't JeanneHedge May-13-13 17
                                 RE: Well, That Worked dep't Gryphonadmin May-13-13 18
                             RE: Well, That Worked dep't Terminus Est May-16-13 19
                                 RE: Well, That Worked dep't BobSchroeck May-16-13 20
                             RE: Well, That Worked dep't Vorticity May-17-13 21
         RE: Well, That Worked dep't BeardedFerret May-12-13 8

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Meagen
Member since Jul-14-02
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May-11-13, 06:37 PM (EDT)
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1. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #0
 
   Well, you have precedent for just deciding "wait, I came up with a better version of how that could be written, I call 'never happened' on that story and here's a new story". But hey, if Song of War never got to a point where you were happy enough with it to release it, then it's better off beng unreleased.

After the kind of year you've had, I thank the whims of Eris that you're still alive and hanging out online. That you are actualy still thinking about your awesome fanfics and working on some of them? Bonus.

--
With great power come great perks.


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Gryphonadmin
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May-11-13, 07:07 PM (EDT)
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2. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #1
 
   >Well, you have precedent for just deciding "wait, I came up with a
>better version of how that could be written, I call 'never happened'
>on that story and here's a new story". But hey, if Song of War
>never got to a point where you were happy enough with it to release
>it, then it's better off beng unreleased.

Oh, it wasn't scrapped and started over; most of what was written when it still had its original working title is retained. It's just that before... oh, say ten days ago, it was only 40-some percent of an actual story, or even something that would stand up as an intermediate installment (which is what it kind of has to be, anyway, given its position in the overall arc of Symphony 5). Even the original title may yet survive, just not attached to this installment (admittedly, if it does it'll be referring to something different).

>After the kind of year you've had, I thank the whims of Eris that
>you're still alive and hanging out online.

There is that.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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BeardedFerret
Member since Apr-21-08
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May-11-13, 08:56 PM (EDT)
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3. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #0
 
   On the other hand, you've given us arguably more in the way of 'filler' content (Manhunt, Starcrossed, etc) in between Symphony movements than we might have had otherwise. It all works out, and it's not like you've been sitting around letting the whole thing stagnate in the mean time. :)


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Gryphonadmin
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May-11-13, 09:08 PM (EDT)
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4. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #3
 
   >On the other hand, you've given us arguably more in the way of
>'filler' content (Manhunt, Starcrossed, etc)

I think I'm a little hurt at Manhunt and Star-Crossed being described as "filler content". I mean, I know what you meant (I hope), but...

--G.
(On the other hand, that would explain the six whole responses to Renegades of Paragon. Uecker-in-Major League territory. :)
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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zwol
Member since Feb-23-12
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May-11-13, 10:25 PM (EDT)
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5. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #4
 
   I can't speak for anyone else, but I think I'll have more to say about Shepard's 11 in general once it's complete. So far I'm enjoying the installments but it's hard to tell where it's all going -- in this case, I think partially because the characters don't really know what's going on yet, and partially because it seems like this storyline means a great deal more of Mass Effect's plot has just been imported to UF, which is potentially disruptive enough that it's hard to tell what to think of it at this stage.


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Gryphonadmin
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May-11-13, 10:34 PM (EDT)
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6. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #5
 
   >I can't speak for anyone else, but I think I'll have more to say about
>Shepard's 11 in general once it's complete.

Well, fair enough. I wouldn't worry too much about the Bigger Plot at this point, though. There's such a thing as standing too far back. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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zwol
Member since Feb-23-12
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May-11-13, 10:53 PM (EDT)
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7. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #6
 
   Also fair enough.

Meanwhile, writing that down seems to have jarred something coherent about Renegades out of my brain, so I'll just go post that over there now. :)


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twipper
Member since Jan-8-03
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May-12-13, 11:34 AM (EDT)
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9. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #6
 
   Well, there went my idle speculations after S11 Act 2 about the connection between the events of of S11 and Cybertron Reloaded. :)

Unless of course Legion shows up, then I'll just sit here and giggle.

And concerning Star-Crossed and Correspondence, I started reading them as they appeared and just didn't get the settings. I reread them after playing ME 1&2 and suddenly; 'Huh, that not only made much more sense but was much more enjoyable.' Not sure why that happened but... *shrugs*

Brian

Pointless aside: Legion being a sharp shooter was just downright creepy to me. Skynet-style overwhelming force of sentient robots decimating the human population, sure. But sneaky AS's surgically picking us off one by one? Ack.


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Gryphonadmin
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May-12-13, 06:16 PM (EDT)
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10. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #9
 
   >Well, there went my idle speculations after S11 Act 2 about the
>connection between the events of of S11 and Cybertron Reloaded. :)

I'm not saying there isn't one? Just that you don't need to worry much about it yet if there is.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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JeanneHedge
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May-12-13, 07:52 PM (EDT)
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11. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #9
 
   LAST EDITED ON May-13-13 AT 00:22 AM (EDT)
 
>And concerning Star-Crossed and Correspondence, I started reading them
>as they appeared and just didn't get the settings. I reread them
>after playing ME 1&2 and suddenly; 'Huh, that not only made much more
>sense but was much more enjoyable.' Not sure why that happened but...
>*shrugs*

I suspect it's that you didn't have the background so you weren't familiar with the characters and context on first read. Second read was better because you had that familiarity and were able to pick up on things that made it more enjoyable.

Not being a gamer, this has been a continual problem for me as the UF stories have become more and more heavily based on games. Absolutely no idea who or what they're talking about, or if I know the "who" (come characters are almost impossible to miss) I still don't have the background/context. I know there are lots of things in SA S11 stories I'm missing that no amount of internet research can fill in for me. My loss.

Jeanne


Jeanne Hedge
http://www.jhedge.com
"Never give up, never surrender!"


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Gryphonadmin
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May-12-13, 10:29 PM (EDT)
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12. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #11
 
   >>And concerning Star-Crossed and Correspondence, I started reading them
>>as they appeared and just didn't get the settings. I reread them
>>after playing ME 1&2 and suddenly; 'Huh, that not only made much more
>>sense but was much more enjoyable.' Not sure why that happened but...
>>*shrugs*
>
>I suspect it's that you didn't have the background so you weren't
>familiar with the characters and context on first read. Second read
>was better because you had that familiarity and were able to pick up
>on things that made it more enjoyable.

I'm a little sad about this, if only because historically I've generally tried for the opposite effect ("you didn't have to be there") with imported material, and in the past have had (or at least been told I've had) some success with it. If I've fallen down on that lately, that bears acknowledging.

It's always been tricky - there's explication and then there's exposition - but I guess I used to be better at it.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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simonz
Member since Jun-23-04
82 posts
May-12-13, 11:45 PM (EDT)
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13. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #12
 
   >I'm a little sad about this, if only because historically I've
>generally tried for the opposite effect ("you didn't have to be
>there") with imported material, and in the past have had (or at least
>been told I've had) some success with it. If I've fallen down on that
>lately, that bears acknowledging.
>
>It's always been tricky - there's explication and then there's
>exposition - but I guess I used to be better at it.

For what it's worth, I think you do an absolutely fantastic job. I'm a big fan of the genres you tend to include, but due to various reasons (time and money, generally), I'm not anywhere as familiar with them as I'd like to be. I muse on this regularly, that my biggest exposure to so many things is directly due to reading the things you write. And since I agree with the general consensus that you to a better job with their characters than the original authors do (cf. the entirety of the Marvel Universe), that works for me.

Any time you introduce something that I wasn't familiar with, I'll spend a bit of quality time with Google filling in the deeper details and background that weren't necessary (or didn't happen in the UF-verse), and afterwards I'm always amazed at how seamlessly you integrate such disparate sources into what I generally explain to people as The Literary Equivalent of the Theory of Everything.

-Simonz


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BeardedFerret
Member since Apr-21-08
328 posts
May-13-13, 02:33 AM (EDT)
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14. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #12
 
   >>>And concerning Star-Crossed and Correspondence, I started reading them
>>>as they appeared and just didn't get the settings. I reread them
>>>after playing ME 1&2 and suddenly; 'Huh, that not only made much more
>>>sense but was much more enjoyable.' Not sure why that happened but...
>>>*shrugs*
>>
>>I suspect it's that you didn't have the background so you weren't
>>familiar with the characters and context on first read. Second read
>>was better because you had that familiarity and were able to pick up
>>on things that made it more enjoyable.
>
>I'm a little sad about this, if only because historically I've
>generally tried for the opposite effect ("you didn't have to be
>there") with imported material, and in the past have had (or at least
>been told I've had) some success with it. If I've fallen down on that
>lately, that bears acknowledging.
>
>It's always been tricky - there's explication and then there's
>exposition - but I guess I used to be better at it.

While we're giving you a big head, I'd argue your best work on this front was during the opening two Symphonies. I've still never watched an episode of RGU but the way you retold the story through flashback, exposition and innuendo really worked for me.


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The Traitor
Member since Feb-24-09
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May-13-13, 05:12 AM (EDT)
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15. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #12
 
   Not so; you're still as good at this as you were. You've said that you're going for a story that's accessible to people who don't know the source material and you've very much succeeded - I have never played a Mass Effect game or Skyrim because my computer would try and run it for three seconds before giving up in a shower of sparks and a noise like the suicide of a euphonium, and I'm having a wonderful time with it. Additional familiarity with the source material just allows one to pick up on more of the character nuances and enhances the experience slightly.

tl;dr: Don't beat yourself up about not everyone sharing the reference pool, for that way madness lies.

---
"Yeah, I'm definitely going to hell/But I'll have all the best stories to tell" -- Frank Turner, The Ballad of Me and My Friends

As an aside, the alternative to liking a story more when you know about the source material would appear to be liking it less when you know about the source material, and that really doesn't bear thinking about. =]


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twipper
Member since Jan-8-03
129 posts
May-13-13, 11:58 AM (EDT)
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16. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #15
 
   LAST EDITED ON May-13-13 AT 12:10 PM (EDT)
 
>tl;dr: Don't beat yourself up about not everyone sharing the reference
>pool, for that way madness lies.


Agreed. The Mass Effect material is the only stuff you've used that I just didn't get until I 'knew' the characters. In terms of NXE, I STILL have never seen an episode of NGE or played X-Com (I did run In Nomine as a gm though). In terms of SotS, I've never seen an episode of RGU. And in terms of Transformers, the 1986 motion picture is as current as I'll ever be. And I've loved it all.

I'm actually blaming Bioware for this. Bastilla, when introduced in 'In for a Penny', just left me going 'meh'. Then I bought a compilation pack of Star Wars games, played KotOR, and suddenly 'huh, ok I get her now'. Maybe the way Bioware games alter character personality development dependent on Light/Dark//Paragon/Renegade etc just keeps ME from getting those characters till I see them interact in their 'native' environment.

(Well, that and about the time Bastilla showed up, my wife had been reading the New Jedi Order rubish; I got through the first two or three and walked away, completely done in with angsty teenage Jedi)

Brian


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JeanneHedge
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May-13-13, 07:19 PM (EDT)
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17. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #12
 
   LAST EDITED ON May-13-13 AT 07:21 PM (EDT)
 
>I'm a little sad about this, if only because historically I've
>generally tried for the opposite effect ("you didn't have to be
>there") with imported material, and in the past have had (or at least
>been told I've had) some success with it. If I've fallen down on that
>lately, that bears acknowledging.
>
>It's always been tricky - there's explication and then there's
>exposition - but I guess I used to be better at it.

Hey, UF has always had a bit of "you had to be there" to it, right from the beginning. Back then it was an effect of using author avatars and friends as story leads. Having moved well away from that stage of writing years ago, now it's more a matter of the reader being familiar with the material or not, and as my cousin use to say, "big whoop on that"

It's on the reader to fill in the blanks, not the author (unless you really want to start doing something like David Weber's infamous 20-30 page mid-story data dumps of What Has Gone Before). If all readers don't get all the levels of the story, oh well. I've been perfectly happy knowing that I'm enjoying things differently from someone who knows the source material cold. If I want to know more, I can go look it up and ask questions, and it's not a big deal if I don't get all the jokes.

Like was said upthread, I didn't know much about RGU when they came on the scene - I do now. I've picked up more than a little Norse mythology too <g>

Just because the current story is more heavily imported from one source than any I can think of since the CSI stories doesn't mean anything more than the author's found a different fertile ground he's interested in. It certainly doesn't mean there's a problem with the story.

Besides, if there's something that needs explanation that badly, there are always Annotations :)


Jeanne


Jeanne Hedge
http://www.jhedge.com
"Never give up, never surrender!"


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Gryphonadmin
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May-13-13, 07:26 PM (EDT)
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18. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #17
 
   >It's on the reader to fill in the blanks, not the author (unless you
>really want to start doing something like David Weber's infamous 20-30
>page mid-story data dumps of What Has Gone Before).

I haven't read any of his books, but I'm reminded of the way the whole first chapter of every Hardy Boys book was essentially the same summary of who the Hardy brothers were, what they looked like, and so forth. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Terminus Est
Member since Nov-4-04
185 posts
May-16-13, 04:21 AM (EDT)
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19. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #12
 
   For what it's worth, the stories you put out -are- perfectly readable on their own, with no knowledge of the original works whatsoever. Hell, when I first started reading, I didn't know most of those originals even -existed-.

My library of entirely useless fandom knowledge has grown considerably over the past couple-three years, and re-reading does highlight some nuances - but they're not generally overpowering, so much as little bonuses. Finally, fully understanding a joke, for example. I'd cite examples, but it's after 3 AM and my brain is kinda operating on autopilot at the moment.


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BobSchroeck
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May-16-13, 08:38 AM (EDT)
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20. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #19
 
   >For what it's worth, the stories you put out -are- perfectly readable
>on their own, with no knowledge of the original works whatsoever.
>Hell, when I first started reading, I didn't know most of those
>originals even -existed-.

I have to second Terminus on this. I've been an eager fan of UF works for well over a decade and a half now, and I'm still stumbling over stuff and going "Oh, that's thus-and-so from thus-and-such-UF-story!" (And for a few years I would follow that up with "I never realized they came from an outside source" until I wised up. <grin>) The fact that I never knew their origins never affected my ability to enjoy the UF story I first saw them in.

Of course, as Terminus also states, picking up on the little details and in-jokes you get when you know the source adds a lot to the reading experience -- but not getting them doesn't reduce the experience at all.

-- Bob
-------------------
My race is pacifist and does not believe in war. We kill only out of personal spite.


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Vorticity
Member since Feb-6-12
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May-17-13, 04:49 AM (EDT)
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21. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #12
 
   >>>And concerning Star-Crossed and Correspondence, I started reading them
>>>as they appeared and just didn't get the settings. I reread them
>>>after playing ME 1&2 and suddenly; 'Huh, that not only made much more
>>>sense but was much more enjoyable.' Not sure why that happened but...
>>>*shrugs*
>>
>>I suspect it's that you didn't have the background so you weren't
>>familiar with the characters and context on first read. Second read
>>was better because you had that familiarity and were able to pick up
>>on things that made it more enjoyable.
>
>I'm a little sad about this, if only because historically I've generally tried >for the opposite effect ("you didn't have to be there") with imported material,
>and in the past have had (or at least been told I've had) some success with it.
>If I've fallen down on that lately, that bears acknowledging.

Actually, Star-Crossed is one of my favorite stories, and I had no experience with anything it was based on -- no Mass Effect, no Halo, no whatever else was in there. I knew Gryphon, Kei, and Vision, and that was all I needed. I can't say I pictured the characters exactly as they look on the Wikipedia page, but I had enough of an idea to enjoy in the story. So I think you do a pretty good job with giving background.


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BeardedFerret
Member since Apr-21-08
328 posts
May-12-13, 01:59 AM (EDT)
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8. "RE: Well, That Worked dep't"
In response to message #4
 
   >>On the other hand, you've given us arguably more in the way of
>>'filler' content (Manhunt, Starcrossed, etc)
>
>I think I'm a little hurt at Manhunt and Star-Crossed
>being described as "filler content". I mean, I know what you meant (I
>hope), but...

Oh, meant with all the respect in the world. Manhunt in particular is one of my favourite pieces of UF content to date.


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