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Subject: "S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Conferences Symphony of the Sword Topic #384
Reading Topic #384
Mercutio
Member since May-25-13
223 posts
Sep-11-13, 02:29 AM (EDT)
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"S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
 
   LAST EDITED ON Sep-11-13 AT 07:30 AM (EDT)
 
So the Summer of Symphony 2013 comes to end with this latest installment. If I weren't so dirt-poor right at the moment I'd have had t-shirts made with tour dates on them listed for the... five pieces we've gotten? Six, if you count the end of the first major arc of DSM Panic and its integration into the whole?

I picked a good time to show up here, it seems. Anyway, let's begin.

>- William Shakespeare
>The Tempest, Act 2, Scene I

Aww, I'm a sucker for an appropriate Shakespeare quote. And you guys went with his second-best play, as well.

(His best play is and always will be Lear.)

>For a moment, Utena wasn't sure what to be more surprised by:
>that the staff of the Phoenix House had learned from somewhere that she
>held the rank of captain, or that she was apparently expected to take
>the big book on the Phoenix Flight with her when she left.

They do have the internet on Diqiu, Utena. I mean, it's not like you're in a third-world galactic hellhole. They probably just googled you.

Now, if they'd addressed her as Prince Tenjou, THAT would be some impressive sleuthing on the part of the hospitality staff. :)

>"Wait for it," Corwin replied, still grinning - and a moment
>later, the bulky and unmistakable shape of Mogi swooped between two of
>the buildings on the other side of the street, passed straight over the
>press group at barely more than head height (causing hats, scarves, and
>notebook pages to go flying amid cries of surprise and dismay), flared
>like an aerodyne, and made a stylish six-point landing smack in the
>middle of the Phoenix House's striped loading zone.

I really like this passage for some reason and can't articulate why. It just seems particularly well put together, particularly the parenthetical aside (I have a crippling addiction to parenthetical asides) and various similes. But I can't point to anything specific and say 'yeah, that was pretty awesome'. So, y'know. For what that's worth.

Also, I like that the hat is still in fashion for men in Diqiu. Hats are awesome but these days people either don't wear them or have no idea how to wear one properly. (You need to get them fitted, people, and also to match them to your clothing!)

>A crowd of
>the youngest airbenders and Air Acolytes swarmed around Mogi like the
>deck crew of a spacecraft carrier around a returning fighter, even
>though he'd only been gone for ten minutes and required neither
>refueling nor fresh missiles.

I'm willing to bet that while he may not REQUIRE it, Mogi will never, ever pass up a chance for a good refueling.

>"Like a -stone wall.-
>Oh, if only you'd been here 120 years ago!" she added, clasping her
>hands wistfully under her chin. "We'd have been spared all that
>tiresome business with - "
>
>"Ikki," said Korra from behind her. "Standing right here.
>We've talked about this."
>
>Ikki turned to see the Avatar giving her a grumpy look, arms
>folded, and grinned at her. "I'm not blaming -you,- dear," she said.

Oh man, did Ikki just burn Mako?

Ikki, you are now officially my favorite among the UF Tenzinspawn. Sorry, Jinora. Anyone who points and laughs at Mako wins my undying love.

>"That changed the following year. When we learned that you were
>Cephirean, and that you and Corwin had found yourselves caught up in
>the... cosmic... events there, a few high-ranking members of the Order
>of the White Lotus... overreacted. Panicked, might not be too great an
>exaggeration," she added frankly. "This was only reinforced by news of
>your various exploits in both worlds over the next few years. I'm sure
>Korra has told you of the way in which their apprehension ultimately
>found expression: Certain members of the Order conspired in a secretive
>effort to prevent you and the Avatar from ever meeting."

Okay, hmm. I have opinions about this plot point, and I'm gonna try and express them without being insulting.

As near as I can tell, the reason an enormous chunk of the White Lotus leadership decided to try and prevent Korra from hanging out with Corwin is that they didn't want her going off-plane where if anything happened to her they couldn't be sure of the consequences to the Avatar Spirit, yes?

(That's not rhetorical. I'm asking it legit because its from there that my other assumptions flow.)

If that's the case then, well... that was unbelievably dumb on their point. And I'm using "unbelievably" to mean "no, I don't buy it."

I can see one or two Master Lotuses making a bad decision. It's not like Master Pakku was a model of rational thought, and Jeong Jeong was... volatile. But a massive conspiracy?

I mean, lets unpack this. These guys don't even think "hmm, we have reason to believe that occupying positions of cosmological significance in Cephiro will interact badly with our own cosmologically significant person. Let's do some research. In the meantime, keep Korra in the dark." They just have vague, unrealized fears that maybe something bad will happen if Korra dies off-plane. Not just "goes off-plane" but "dies off-plane." And their reaction to this is engage in an incredibly shoddy conspiracy to prevent her from ever again interacting with people she's befriended offplane?

I could almost, almost buy that if it were just one or two of them, and they were at least being subtle about it. But... intercepting her mail? Intercepting wedding invitations? I mean, that's something you only do if you're desperate, or if you're very, very sure your incredibly ill-thought-out conspiracy will work and Korra will not only never see Corwin again but will never even communicate with him again.

It might be just me, but I can't see them being this... this stupid. And petty, and just straight-up dumb. I was actually anticipating a bigger payoff here, that the OWL had some kind of legitimate concern about Korra interacting with the Trinity and they wanted to keep her in the dark while they worked things out, as is their shadowy way. This kind of cheapens the whole plotline; it's nearly to the level of cartoonish villainy. It's the sort of "obviously dumb and wrong and shitty thing to do" action you give to people who you want to be perceived as possessing near-suicidal levels of breathtaking idiocy and to be completely unsympathetic villains, and I would argue that presenting Master Lotuses that way doesn't work. I suppose it's possible the Order has fallen a long, long, long way from it's roots, when it was about philosophy, beauty, and truth, and has started staffing itself with complete imbeciles, but...

It would be different if this were some kind of legitimate fear, but Jinora basically completely dismisses it. Or, well, not exactly dismisses it, but elides around it.

As always, not trying to be jerk about this. Just calling it like I see it, and the way I see it, this plot thread ended badly.

Having said all that...

>"On the other hand," she said, many other voices layered upon
>her own, "you might want to hold onto something."

The actual confrontation with the Lotuses, up to and including the way Korra set everything up, was excellently conceived and written. When I talk about how I like seeing more political drama in UF, this is the sort of thing I mean, where someone does some sleuthing, digs deep, discovers ironclad evidence, and then works the system like a stripper pole until it does what they want it to do. I love that stuff. I'm still not sure about the wisdom of reaching for Kyoshi specifically, but whatever else you can say about Kyoshi when she opens her mouth people shut the fuck up, sit up, and pay attention.

>His predecessor, Avatar Roku, was
>murdered at the age of 70, so there's not much help there. Contemporary
>depictions of him near the end of his life do show him as an old man,
>albeit a vigorous one."

I might argue with the use of the word murdered, but Fire Lord Sozin doesn't really deserve having any slack cut. :)

>Jinora chuckled, then sobered again and said, "At any rate,
>there you are. That's what I suspect is happening. Every morning, she
>unknowingly repairs the little things that went wrong during the
>previous day

Minor quibble: I might not have used "morning" here. We're talking about waterbending, which is associated with the moon and the night. Firebending would occur unconsciously at sunrise; unconscious waterbending would be more likely to happen in Korra's sleep in the dead of night.

Also, as Jinora well knows, mornings and Korra are bitter, bitter enemies. :)

>"It's only one hypothesis," Jinora reminded him. "My brother
>thinks it's because the world isn't willing to risk the instability of a
>change of Avatar in the midst of such a rapidly accelerating period of
>change." She smiled fondly. "I think that ascribes entirely too much
>conscious volition to 'the world' as an entity, but then Rohan has
>always been a bit of a dreamer."

To throw my own theory into the ring; it might be possible that the Avatar Spirit has reached the end of its long, long journey and sees no need to move on to another human, but rather is simply preparing for some sort of apotheosis.

(Which might or might not be good for Korra, who is ultimately just a vessel.)

>Corwin looked back at her for a second or two, his gaze level;
>then he smiled.
>
>"Well, then," he said. "I guess we'd better start looking for a
>way to make it happen."

I'd like to note there's a certain amount of irony in Jinora being all "man, those OTHER Lotuses, what dicks for trying to control her life, am I right?" straight to a long a conversation with Korra's friends about how best to control her life. :)

(I kid because I love.)

>"Hmm... yeah," said Utena, thinking it over. "Yeah, I like
>that. We'd still be foreigners, but at least we wouldn't be tourists.
>We'd have a -stake- in what goes on here, and we wouldn't have to
>presume on Korra's hospitality or the airbenders' every time we came."

This is ever-so-slightly arrogant on Utena's part. It takes more than owning property somewhere to have a stake in what happens there, and the ability to casually purchase multiple homes anywhere you want doesn't mean you have a stake in the community.

Then again, this is Utena, who generally develops a stake in whatever community she's part of even if she doesn't try to or, indeed, even wants to.

>Avatar Kyoshi, namesake of Kyoshi Island, had been
>an adept watercolorist with a penchant for landscapes (all of them, Anne
>noticed, a bit disquietingly empty).

This? Was perfect.

I'm not sure why it was perfect. But Kyoshi set up on some lonely rock somewhere painting a very careful watercolor of some lonely, windswept promontory? Yes. Yes, that is what Kyoshi would do.

>At nearly six feet tall, the Scottish redhead stood out
>in most crowds, but especially here in Diqiu, where, even in the
>cosmopolitan hub of all the world's cultures, virtually nobody had hair
>that color.

Trivia: according to stills I've seen, this Friday will feature the first confirmed sighting of a genuine redhead in the Avatar universe. Not just "auburn" like Suki but "actual flame-colored red."

I look forward to it.

>They passed Customs without any problem at all - here as in
>Saikyo, nobody showed the slightest interest in the mysterious runed
>box, which Amy seemed to find a bit disappointing

"I brought all this cash just so I could bribe the customs man! I even wore this skirt in case I needed to show a little leg to seal the deal. When did this town get so boring?"

>Nyima's cheeks colored again. "It's growing back," she said.
>"I had to shave it to get my arrow, that's all."

I still love that they don't require the tonsure anymore.

(In my headcanon, when she achieves mastery Jinora will have a very polite but very -firm- talk with her father about how they may have done it that way two hundred years ago, and no, daddy, of course she isn't saying you look awful with a shaved head, but she still isn't going to be getting up every morning and shaving half her hair off.)

>He was -so- shocked, in fact, that he unconsciously reverted to
>his old default flying-cat form; he'd been cuing that action up when she
>arrived,

I think you mean "queuing that action up", as in, Nall had that action in the queue. Cuing, assuming you're using it as the present participle of "cue", doesn't meant that.

Homophones, man. They are treacherous mofos.

>"... So what was -that- about?" asked Utena while the dust
>settled.
>
>"Well," said Corwin.

The entire sequence of vignettes involving Nall and Lhakpa?

Well played, sir. Well played indeed.

>"I know she would. And I'd love
>to see her again. But your mother must have taught you - there's a
>dividing line between the world of the living and this place for a
>reason.

... Katara doesn't know Skuld very well.

(Valhalla sometimes seems like it has a revolving door these days, especially if you know the right people, even if you didn't earn your Right of Return.)

>"What, you mean 'be 400 years old'? I tried once. His answer
>wasn't that illuminating. He shrugged and said, 'Hell, I dunno, son, it
>just kinda happened while I was doing other stuff.'"

Oddly, this is how I felt when I turned 30. It was like "wait, what? When did THAT happen?"

>"In my time, it was rare for
>people to live as long as they do now in Diqiu. To say -I- was an
>anomaly would be severely understating the issue. Even before I
>attained my great age, I already stood apart from most people of my era
>thanks to my height, and it was only enhanced when I was announced as
>the Avatar."

Hmm. I don't do this a lot, but at this point I would like to pimp The Face Death Forgot, a short and very, very good story about Avatar Kyoshi that more or less paints her as she is painted here with regard to her lifespan, early life, and how she coped with it. It's a wonderful piece and anyone who likes Kyoshi at all should enjoy it.

>"... Wow," Corwin mused. "You -have- mellowed her."

Technically, Korra IS her. :)

>"Have you started on her betrothal necklace yet?"

Hrrm. Corwin is actually going to make one?

It seems a bit... I dunno. Cultural appropriation is usually something that is not cool. Aang wasn't exactly thrilled at all those people dressing up like Air Nomads just because they thought the outfits were nifty.

Might be overthinking it, but it pinged my radar.

>A NEW TEAM AVATAR?

I imagine some debate between Emily and her editor about whether or not 'Krew' was appropriate to use, before deciding it was a bit too precious for such an august publication as the Tribune.

>Korra turned the paper back around and read them a bit of the
>article, in which Emily Wong speculated that this small invasion of
>interesting foreigners gathering around "our Avatar"

Speculation on my part: Emily Wong has, by this point, figured out exactly who most if not all the people she's been following are, and is simply trying to figure out what to do with this information.

Though younger and more callow than her ME counterpart, Emily is probably well aware of the old reporters adage: "If your mother says she loves you, check it out." Sure, the fact that they're associating with Korra means that Corwin and Utena probably aren't sinister, which means she can provisionally trust their statement that this series of articles will culminate in a big scoop. But trust is for suckers in the newsgathering game, and Emily is putting not only her rep on the line, but that of the Tribune and her chances for promotion. So she wouldn't just take their word, she'd check it out.

Diqiu has internet access, if I recall correctly, and even if it doesn't Zipang certainly does, and Emily has a ton of photos and at least some of the resources of the Tribune. Running her own image-recognition check (or asking her editor to have a stringer from their no-doubt-excellent Zipang desk do it for them) will produce a shit-ton of news articles about Utena and probably a fair bit about Corwin as well. Hell, assuming Diqiu has full internet access she could likely pull a lot of their public record from Zeta Cygni, Tomodachi, and Bajor.

Unfortunately for Emily, the news reports from half the Federation make Utena look like the biggest damn hero to come along since the original Wedge Defenders, and the OTHER half decry her as a vile war criminal working for dissident elements bent on undermining the lawful actions and sovereignty of the Earth Alliance- er, of independent Federation member-states.

Which would rather put her in a bind when it comes time to decide which way to hop in her final installment. Which would, in turn, make her rather eager to sit them down and get'em on the record before she writes herself into a narrative corner.

/speculation

>"We are," Nyima said. "Or we try to be, anyway."

Aang, ironically, was kind of a failure at both these things.

Well, he was kind of humble. At times. But retiring, not so much.

>"Metalbenders can't bend it - too highly refined - and I guess
>gold was too blingy," said Corwin.

Platinum is also way less malleable and generally tougher and more durable than gold. Higher melting point, too.

Despite Ben's previous Miles Mayhem analogy to Hiroshi, the man was undeniably pretty brilliant. He invented the automobile AND heavier-than-air flight AND the tank. Any one of those by itself would have been enough. I don't know if being one of Skuld's Chosen has a moral component involved (that is, if you have to not just be a cosmically good engineer, but also have a moral compass that's agreeable to her) but if it doesn't, I'd say in the context of UF Hiroshi would definitely be in contention.

Or if not with her then with whoever her demonic counterpart is, I suppose. If it works like it does in In Nomine.

>During the brief intermission following the fourth preliminary
>match (a battle of two teams from the far-flung Si Wong Desert, in which
>the Night Vale Spiderwolves narrowly defeated their arch-rivals, the
>Desert Bluffs Sunbeetles)

Ooooo, those Desert Bluffs Sunbeetles! They're so bad. And ugly. And bad. And just, just awful. Nobody likes them.

>"While we're waiting for the next
>match, who wants refills?" Pointing to various companions, she ticked
>off their preferred snacks. "Popcorn, fire flakes, soda, lychee juice?
>Rory? More rice balls? Amy, you want another squid-on-a-stick?"

What, no fire gummies? Korra seems like a fire gummy kind of girl. Especially the gold ones shaped like little dragons heads, she loves those.

>In his place, sporting the green number ninety-nine, making his Major
>League Bending debut... the completely unknown Watari Karasu!"

Ah. Language puns! Always solid.

Korra, if pressed, is going to claim she simply used a completely valid translation of Corwin's name in standard, isn't she?

>"I bet right around now, Azana's wishing she hadn't listened
>when Karana said she knew someone who could take over for Xiang Wan,"
>color commentator Zheng remarked from Korra's phone radio.
>
>"I'm fairly sure Zanya didn't really know what she was talking
>about there," play-by-play man Kenji said dryly.

This is probably me being confused, but... I'm not sure how we jumped from Azana and Karana to Zanya in this exchange, as she's on the other team and doesn't seem pertinent to the conversation at hand. I want to say her name was used by mistake, maybe? Except I have a long track record of being wrong when I think things like that.

>"Dr. Rockalanche -doesn't know that.- He keeps trying to
>cover her left flank even though she doesn't really need it. That's
>more interesting."

Ugh, really?

I know he just joined the team and all, and this is just an exhibition match, but man, my estimation of the Ice Wraiths as hard-nosed chargers who skirt the rules just went way, way down. There's playing clever and brutal, and then there's playing dumb, and as a hockey fan I can tell you there's a HUGE difference.

I feel like I should have more to say about the pro-bending match. Every time you guys do an extended personal fight sequence (by which I mean, a fight involving people with crazy weapons and/or crazy powers, as opposed to ones involving fleets and armies) I feel like I should have something to say, but they're always so well executed I can never think of anything aside from "I liked this. It was good."

So, you know. I liked this. It was good.

Narratively speaking, I might have had Corwin lose anyway (in order to set up the rematch) but that's such a minor point.

>"Welllll," said Korra with an unconvincingly innocent air, "as
>you know I don't generally like to throw my weight around - " (here she
>magnificently ignored Azana's skeptical snort)

"I don't normally play this card, but... I'm the Avatar."

>"HAH!" said Nall involuntarily; then he composed himself and
>said with heavy mock gravity, "Uh, I mean, scandalous, scandalous." He
>glared at Corwin. "Manwhore."

Says the guy who is currently on the rebound and enjoying every second of it.

>Corwin shrugged, unconcerned. "Failed my Dodge roll," he
>replied.

Shouldn't have spent all your Essence in the ring, Corwin. Now you can't even afford your basic Excellency Charms.

>This would
>probably have happened anyway, since the Fire Ferrets were the hometown
>team,

One imagines one of several hometown teams, a la New York City.

>Korra especially liked the one of Zanya just on her way out of the ring,
>surrounded by dust and water and fire, her fact curiously serene and
>resigned behind her faceguard.

Should be "her face" rather than "her fact", yes?

>He didn't mind, and he supposed
>the young red wouldn't either, but still, Nall found himself with
>certain reservations about the idea that the practice looked like
>becoming a -habit- with Draconia's nobility and Corwin's family line...

I stand by my comment from Le Drout du Dragon that Nall is going to be one heck of a diplomat and mediator one day. The kid has exactly the right kind of mind for it, and once he calms down some he'll have the right attitude for it as well.

... of course, as a dragon, it could take a few thousand years for him to really mature, but heck, who is counting.

>Nall seemed to be considering that for a few seconds; then,
>without any buildup to it at all, he said, "I killed my cousin Nax the
>other day."

Lest it be said I can't recognize when I am wrong, I cheerfully retract my opinion re: the fight with Nax seeming tacked-on and rather superfluous at the tail end of Le Droit. That was me misreading the structure and nature of the story and it's place within the Symphony. I called that one wrong.

>"I had to fully embrace my entire draconic nature in ways I never have
>before. And part of me really... hates that he made me do that."

Awww, Nall.

Nall should spend some time with some people who could show him how to be a bit more Zen about that kind of thing.

Also, I say fie to the 'draconic heritage' bit. That's your guilt talking. You ARE a dragon, Nall. Don't let anyone else tell you what that means. Your cultural heritage is just that; cultural. YOU decide how to properly act when you assume your dragon form, not a bunch of guys who came up with rules and habits hundreds of thousands of years ago to justify and formalize the fact that they were pretty okay with using murder as a form of social advancement and dispute resolution.

>"You... you set that on fire just by -looking- at it," Azana
>said slowly.

Awww yus.

I waited two parts for this scene, and it did not disappoint. I like how Juni is now regarded as having superpowers even by -another person- who can set things on fire using only their mind. Validation! It's not just for breakfast anymore.

Diqiu and Known Space (well, I suppose Diqiu is technically part of known space, but you get what I mean) could potentially have much to teach other when it comes to weird-ass mind/body powers. The Diqiu approach is more holistic, but the mind-focused approach of known space can produce some powerful results that the focus on martial arts may have blinded the traditional bending masters to. Aegis should probably see about sending a liaison out, if they can do it without attracting the Corps overmuch.

Is psi talent (by which I mean traditional psi talent, possibly including force powers) known in Diqiu, if I may ask and if it isn't a plot point? I imagine their resident psychics and mages all basically becomes shamans of some type, dealing with spirits and generally being weird and mystical in a different way than benders can be weird and mystical. That's just me, tho.

>"Particularly the Spiderwolves. Those guys are creepy."

I... honestly can't decide if Night Vale would be more or less terrifying if located in Diqiu rather than a benighted strip of the southwest.

>"It's barely even gotten interesting yet."

... Anthy wins.

I'm not sure what, but she definitely wins it.

>Emerging from Narook's at something just short of a run, Corwin
>nearly ran smack into Emily Wong.
>
>"I have questions that need answering," she said flatly,

Still sticking with my theory here, yeah.

>"Remember the original plan, where I
>was just going to drop off some DNA and then head home?"
>
>Utena snorted and headbutted him very lightly. "Not so much
>now," she said.

... you know.

I suddenly wonder if Anthy does, in fact, object to ovafusion on the philosophical grounds she stated back in the day; 'unnatural' seemed a bit harsh coming from her. A bit, dare I say, out of character...

Unless, of course, she had Big Plans for Utena and Corwin and her, and she didn't need a reason so much as she needed an -excuse-.

(Anthy is pretty awesome, is what I am saying.)

>Annabelle Korra Tenjou
>as herself

Well, that finally happened.

* * *

Good lord, this one was long! I'm not surprised you chopped it into thirds. I mean, wow. It took me seven hours just to REVIEW it, I can't imagine how many evenings you lot were head-deep down this rabbit hole.

If I might ask, out of curiosity, was there a Plan A for little Annabelle's entrance into the world before you guys created Diqiu a couple months ago and slotted it and Korra into UF?

I mean, clearly she's been planned for some time. Years, in fact. People, even people who are relatively important, reproducing in UF isn't always a big deal; I'm reminded of "Another Christmas Rose", guest-starring the offspring of everyone anyone ever wondered about where they'd gotten to since Twilight. But Corwin sort of replaced Gryphon as the de-facto male lead in UF awhile back (to the extent the universe has ever had just one leading man) and Utena is, well, Utena, so I kind of figured that their kid would have had their origin, circumstances of conception and birth, and likely future life plan fairly well conceived prior to these last couple months.

Finally... hmm. Not sure how to couch this. Have you guys given any thought to possibly re-naming Symphony 5? Admittedly, I do not know your plans for future parts of it and how the plot is going to play out. It could be the Order of the Black Rose will suddenly start playing a major role in things; so far they haven't exactly been absent, but have definitely been... thin on the ground, as it were. We're already six movements deep, with a seventh on the way, plus assorted side-stories. It's comparable in length to all the other Symphonies already, and while there's no rule that SAYS they all have to be similar in length, it really seems like at this point, structurally speaking, you might want to re-brand it, end it either with Taken by Storm or soon after (what's already there functions at least as well as a cohesive whole as Symphonies 3 and 4 do) and then push the Black Rose stuff into a hypothetical Symphony 6.

That's just me spitballing from a readers-eye view, mind you.

-Merc
Keep Rat

"The city council announces the opening of a new polarbear-dog park at the corner of Shan and Deheleshen, near the Jasmine Dragon. They would like to remind everyone that polarbear-dogs are not allowed in the polarbear-dog park. People are not allowed in the polearbear-dog park. It is possible you will see hooded figures in the polarbear-dog park. Do not approach them. Do not approach the polarbear-dog park."


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  RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Terminus Est Sep-11-13 1
     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Gryphonadmin Sep-20-13 55
         RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Mercutio Sep-21-13 56
             RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Gryphonadmin Sep-21-13 57
                 RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Mercutio Sep-21-13 58
                     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Gryphonadmin Sep-21-13 59
  RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Polychrome Sep-11-13 2
     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Gryphonadmin Sep-11-13 8
         RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Polychrome Sep-11-13 18
  RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue BZArcher Sep-11-13 3
     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue BZArcher Sep-11-13 4
         RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Mercutio Sep-11-13 5
  RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue pjmoyermoderator Sep-11-13 6
  RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue BZArcher Sep-11-13 7
     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Gryphonadmin Sep-11-13 12
  RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue pjmoyermoderator Sep-11-13 9
     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue JeanneHedge Sep-11-13 10
     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Gryphonadmin Sep-11-13 13
         RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue pjmoyermoderator Sep-11-13 14
  RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Gryphonadmin Sep-11-13 11
     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue pjmoyermoderator Sep-11-13 17
     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Mercutio Sep-11-13 19
         RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue pjmoyermoderator Sep-12-13 20
             RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Mercutio Sep-12-13 21
         RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue The Traitor Sep-12-13 22
             RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Gryphonadmin Sep-12-13 24
                 RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Mercutio Sep-12-13 28
                 RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Peter Eng Sep-12-13 34
                 RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue BobSchroeck Sep-13-13 37
                 RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Offsides Sep-13-13 38
                     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue JeanneHedge Sep-13-13 39
                         RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Peter Eng Sep-13-13 41
                         RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue The Traitor Sep-13-13 42
             RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Mercutio Sep-12-13 26
                 RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Gryphonadmin Sep-12-13 29
                     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Mercutio Sep-12-13 30
         RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue jonathanlennox Sep-12-13 27
             RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue JeanneHedge Sep-12-13 32
             RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Mercutio Sep-12-13 33
                 RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue jonathanlennox Sep-16-13 54
         RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Gryphonadmin Sep-12-13 31
             RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Peter Eng Sep-12-13 35
     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Bushido Sep-12-13 25
  RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue twipper Sep-11-13 15
     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue BZArcher Sep-11-13 16
  RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Offsides Sep-12-13 23
  RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue BeardedFerret Sep-13-13 36
  RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue JeanneHedge Sep-13-13 40
     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue DaemeonX Sep-13-13 43
         RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Offsides Sep-15-13 49
             RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue junipermoderator Sep-15-13 50
                 RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue JFerio Sep-15-13 51
                 RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Gryphonadmin Sep-15-13 52
                     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Offsides Sep-16-13 53
     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue junipermoderator Sep-14-13 44
         RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue JeanneHedge Sep-14-13 45
             RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Gryphonadmin Sep-14-13 46
                 RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue JeanneHedge Sep-14-13 47
                     RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue Gryphonadmin Sep-14-13 48

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Terminus Est
Member since Nov-4-04
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Sep-11-13, 03:05 AM (EDT)
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1. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Sep-11-13 AT 03:05 AM (EDT)
 
I think Corwin's initial Lens response to Utena best fits this piece. <!> pretty well sums things up as far as I'm concerned.

I do have one question about the birthing scene, but seeing as it will (probably) be resolved when the next piece comes down the pipes I think I'll withhold it for the time being.

Seeing Corwin actually fail at something (if only at first) was a bit refreshing, even if I do generally prefer a strong and capable protag. Kinda wondering what the deal is with the woman the Ferrets triple-teamed at the end there. It's obvious there's history there, but a fireball to the face of a -stranger- just because you've misread the situation horribly takes some colossal anger issues. Assuming she wasn't just a throwaway bad guy, I'd like to see some exposition on that front and the issues between her and... was it Azana or Katara? I can't remember offhand, have to look it up later, when it's not 2 AM.


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Gryphonadmin
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Sep-20-13, 07:45 PM (EDT)
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55. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #1
 
   Re-reading, seem to have missed a few things.

>It's obvious there's history there,
>but a fireball to the face of a -stranger- just because you've misread
>the situation horribly takes some colossal anger issues.

Zanya has... problems, yes. There wasn't a good vector for looking at them in Prologue, but I'm hoping to get her back onto the screen and in a more conversational frame of mind in Goodbye and Hello.

>Assuming she
>wasn't just a throwaway bad guy, I'd like to see some exposition on
>that front and the issues between her and... was it Azana or Katara?

Well, Zanya doesn't like Azana or Karana (not Katara, she doesn't know Katara, as you can probably tell by the fact that she hasn't been drowned :), but she has the bigger beef by far with the latter. In addition to possessing a vast and spiteful disdain for all competitors in the arena, she's also an old-fashioned, unreconstructed firebender racialist. (Like Azana's mom, come to think of it. They'd probably get along reasonably well. I can actually hear Azana facepalming from here.) So she's automatically going to have a bigger problem with the snow savage. Azana's an enemy combatant, but at least she's The Right Kind of People.

(Worse, the only waterbenders Zanya can even tolerate having around her are the ones from the north. This may be because northerners are assholes. I couldn't possibly comment on that, as it is scurrilous and without foundation.)

--G.
but also completely true.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
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Mercutio
Member since May-25-13
223 posts
Sep-21-13, 03:30 AM (EDT)
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56. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #55
 
  
>In addition to possessing a vast and spiteful disdain for all
>competitors in the arena, she's also an old-fashioned, unreconstructed
>firebender racialist.

To go completely off an a tangent here, the question of just what kind of crazy pathologies Sozin instilled in his nation remains an open one.

There's a kind of rough, but by no means universal, consensus in the fandom around the term "fire chauvinist" or "fire chauvinism" to reflect as accurately as possible the fact that the sort of views expressed by Sozin, Azula, and Zhao are indicative of cultural, rather than racial, superiority. They also have nothing to do with firebending per se. Other cultures and nations are inferior to the glories achieved by the Fire Nation, but the people of those nations can partake in that greatness by accepting and emulating it. It is the duty of the sons and daughters of fire to spread their superior culture, sort of a Fire Man's Burden kind of thing.

It's still a pretty ugly philosophy, mind you, but it's subtly different than being just being racist against those damn mud people. Among other things, it allows for cultural assimilation, which straight-up racial philosophies do not; this is how you wind up with people like Kori Morishita and places like Yu Dao. It also allows Azula to do things like recruit the Dai Li and give them high places of honor; their culture is, at least in her estimation, sufficiently fire-like, which means that such transient details as their actual ethnicity or the element they bend are secondary concerns.

Or at least, that's the argument. I happen to believe in it, but since Bryke have not seen fit to publish Sozins Little Red Book or equivalent, one can't be really certain.

-Merc
Keep Rat

"A man slides into the booth across from you. You recognize him vaguely, although he looks considerably different now. It is that man who appeared to be of Slavic origin, but who dressed in an absurd caricature of an Indian chief and called himself the Apache Tracker. Except now, it’s difficult for you to miss, he has actually transformed into a Native American."


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Gryphonadmin
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Sep-21-13, 06:01 AM (EDT)
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57. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #56
 
   >To go completely off an a tangent here, the question of just what kind
>of crazy pathologies Sozin instilled in his nation remains an open
>one.
(...)
>It's still a pretty ugly philosophy, mind you, but it's subtly
>different than being just being racist against those damn mud people.

Yes, and subtlety is clearly one of the first things for which one should reach in attempting to understand Zanya's attitude toward things.

--G.
Jesus Christ
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
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Mercutio
Member since May-25-13
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Sep-21-13, 06:35 AM (EDT)
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58. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #57
 
   With Zanya specifically, you'd know better than I, of course. I didn't so much mean to contradict you as to take the opportunity to delve into the wonderful kaleidoscope of dysfunction that is the Fire Nation and its culture.

>Yes, and subtlety is clearly one of the first things for which one
>should reach in attempting to understand Zanya's attitude toward things.

I dunno. I generally look for the subtle, nuanced explanation to things. Sometimes it ain't there, but in my experience when it comes to people even the ones you think are bricks turn out to be sculptures. Possibly incredibly ugly ones, but still.

... or something. That analogy could be a lot better.

-Merc
Keep Rat

"A man rolls by on the ground, his eyes bleary and sightless, whispering the word "mudwomb" over and over. But you don’t have the money to tip him, so you go inside."


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Gryphonadmin
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Sep-21-13, 11:13 AM (EDT)
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59. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #58
 
   >With Zanya specifically, you'd know better than I, of course. I didn't
>so much mean to contradict you as to take the opportunity to delve
>into the wonderful kaleidoscope of dysfunction that is the Fire Nation
>and its culture.

This must be what it would be like to have Walter Sobchak as a fan.

--G.
"Am I wrong? Am I wrong."
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Polychrome
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Sep-11-13, 04:40 AM (EDT)
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2. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #0
 
   Gotta say, seeing a music cue from Pacific Rim there was a bit disconcerting until I queued it up.

Polychrome

OH SHIT, oh okay, nevermind.


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Gryphonadmin
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Sep-11-13, 01:01 PM (EDT)
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8. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #2
 
   >Gotta say, seeing a music cue from Pacific Rim there was a bit
>disconcerting until I queued it up.

Well, I was going to go with "Category 5", but Phil thought that would be overselling it a little.

--G.
that was a joke
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Polychrome
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Sep-11-13, 09:34 PM (EDT)
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18. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #8
 
   >>Gotta say, seeing a music cue from Pacific Rim there was a bit
>>disconcerting until I queued it up.
>
>Well, I was going to go with "Category 5", but Phil thought that would
>be overselling it a little.

The possiblity of a kaiju crashing through the maternity room briefly crossed my mind.

>
>--G.
>that was a joke

Thank you, EDI.

Polychrome
It also took me a moment to realize the track title did not refer to a shark.


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BZArcher
Member since Nov-8-05
575 posts
Sep-11-13, 06:46 AM (EDT)
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3. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #0
 
   That did nothing good for my sleep schedule, but it was so totally worth the pain.

I will admit, though, that assuming Cecil works on the radio team for Spiderwolves broadcasts, if Carlos is the Water or Earthbender. (Regardless, he is, of course, Perfect.)

Nall's situation seems to be evolving at speed, and I'm genuinely curious where that goes when they head "home", but I'll certainly say it's interesting.

I'm also really wondering what the HELL is going on with Amy and Rory. The more we see them, the more it's clear they've been up to some significant stuff. (Also, yay for Mr. Dr. Pond.)

And then...wow. Hello, Annabelle. We're all really excited to meet you at last.

---------------------------
We will BUILD heroes!


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BZArcher
Member since Nov-8-05
575 posts
Sep-11-13, 07:16 AM (EDT)
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4. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #3
 
   (Oh, and needless to say, really looking forward to the annotations!)

---------------------------
We will BUILD heroes!


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Mercutio
Member since May-25-13
223 posts
Sep-11-13, 07:33 AM (EDT)
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5. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #4
 
   I am eagerly awaiting the annotations making me look much less smart than I hoped I would look, as they often do!

-Merc
Keep Rat


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pjmoyermoderator
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Sep-11-13, 08:57 AM (EDT)
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6. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #0
 
   I'll be responding to the rest later, but had to note this now:

>>Jinora chuckled, then sobered again and said, "At any rate,
>>there you are. That's what I suspect is happening. Every morning, she
>>unknowingly repairs the little things that went wrong during the
>>previous day
>
>Minor quibble: I might not have used "morning" here. We're talking
>about waterbending, which is associated with the moon and the night.
>Firebending would occur unconsciously at sunrise; unconscious
>waterbending would be more likely to happen in Korra's sleep in the
>dead of night.

Only if she slept in a nice shallow pool each night. Which I don't see happening. Best point for anything unconscious would be while showering - I tend to shower right before bed, so that would be the best time for it to happen. I don't know about these other people who do the "morning shower" thing.

>Also, as Jinora well knows, mornings and Korra are bitter, bitter
>enemies. :)

Back in 170 ASC, this was certainly true. These days, 100+ years later, Korra and Mornings have a carefully negotiated state of detente'. People don't bug her before 9 or 10 am, and she wakes up at the speed she chooses and gets her morning meditation on.

--- Philip





Philip J. Moyer
Contributing Writer, Editor and Artist (and Moderator) -- Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
CEO of MTS, High Poobah Of Artwork, and High Priest Of the Church Of Aerianne -- Magnetic Terrapin Studios
"Insert Pithy Comment Here"


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BZArcher
Member since Nov-8-05
575 posts
Sep-11-13, 09:02 AM (EDT)
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7. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #0
 
   A very minor point of order re: cue v. queue. Speaking as someone who took several classes in film/theatre production, cuing up is still used as a verb for camera shots / transitions. I think Gryph's use works well with that.

---------------------------
We will BUILD heroes!


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Gryphonadmin
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Sep-11-13, 03:36 PM (EDT)
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12. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #7
 
   >A very minor point of order re: cue v. queue. Speaking as someone who
>took several classes in film/theatre production, cuing up is still
>used as a verb for camera shots / transitions. I think Gryph's use
>works well with that.

Yes. Thank you.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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pjmoyermoderator
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Sep-11-13, 02:23 PM (EDT)
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9. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #0
 
   >So the Summer of Symphony 2013 comes to end with this latest
>installment. If I weren't so dirt-poor right at the moment I'd have
>had t-shirts made with tour dates on them listed for the... five
>pieces we've gotten? Six, if you count the end of the first major arc
>of DSM Panic and its integration into the whole?

Well, that's what you get with a perfect storm of Summer Break, Unemployment, and New Reference Pools. Don't hold your breath for it happening again, is all I'm saying. ^_-;

>>"Like a -stone wall.-
>>Oh, if only you'd been here 120 years ago!" she added, clasping her
>>hands wistfully under her chin. "We'd have been spared all that
>>tiresome business with - "
>>
>>Ikki turned to see the Avatar giving her a grumpy look, arms
>>folded, and grinned at her. "I'm not blaming -you,- dear," she said.
>
>Oh man, did Ikki just burn Mako?
>
>Ikki, you are now officially my favorite among the UF Tenzinspawn.
>Sorry, Jinora. Anyone who points and laughs at Mako wins my undying
>love.

No, Ikki just burned Korra's romantic hyjinks in general. Admittedly, there's not much of a difference from an outside perspective, but from those in the know at the time they occurred, they're still a point of contention. Korra's still not entirely forgiven Ikki for blabbing about her interest in Mako to Asami, after all...

>>"That changed the following year.
>
>Okay, hmm. I have opinions about this plot point.

[ White Lotus Plot Discussion snipped. ]

This will be addressed later in another post.

>I'm
>still not sure about the wisdom of reaching for Kyoshi specifically,
>but whatever else you can say about Kyoshi when she opens her mouth
>people shut the fuck up, sit up, and pay attention.

Who said Korra was given a choice in the matter? :) Korra's headspace was very interesting right at that moment; it was the equivalent of tag-team wrestling, save that Kyoshi was a bit more forceful about "tagging" Korra on the shoulder. Meanwhile, she got to watch along with Aang et. al. as Kyoshi did her thing.

>I'd like to note there's a certain amount of irony in Jinora being all
>"man, those OTHER Lotuses, what dicks for trying to control her life,
>am I right?" straight to a long a conversation with Korra's friends
>about how best to control her life. :)
>
>(I kid because I love.)

Well, Jinora's addressing it from the viewpoint as a concerned friend/family member, not as a coworker or servant; also, her meddling in Korra's life is about increasing her options and friendships, not reducing them.

>This is ever-so-slightly arrogant on Utena's part. It takes more than
>owning property somewhere to have a stake in what happens there, and
>the ability to casually purchase multiple homes anywhere you want
>doesn't mean you have a stake in the community.
>
>Then again, this is Utena, who generally develops a stake in whatever
>community she's part of even if she doesn't try to or, indeed, even
>wants to.

Well, it's Corwin who brought up the idea, not Utena. Corwin, who's been coming to Diqiu since he was around 4 years old, in later years by himself (well, with Nall), and has very many fond memories of the place. He feels he has a stake in the doings there, even though he's never owned property and had to room in the boys side of Air Temple Island most times.

I mean, I feel like I have a stake in how Bethany Beach is doing, even though I only visit for one week, maybe two, a year. It's not like I haven't been going there for nearly 40 years at this point...

>>"I know she would. And I'd love
>>to see her again. But your mother must have taught you - there's a
>>dividing line between the world of the living and this place for a
>>reason.
>
>... Katara doesn't know Skuld very well.
>
>(Valhalla sometimes seems like it has a revolving door these days,
>especially if you know the right people, even if you didn't earn your
>Right of Return.)

A revolving door for perhaps 100-1000 people that our Primary Cast Members know in some way or another. When compared against the sum total of deceased sapient life in the galaxy/universe that's ended up in Valhalla. That's like saying a handful of sand grains on a beach is statistically significant.

>>"... Wow," Corwin mused. "You -have- mellowed her."
>
>Technically, Korra IS her. :)

Technically, Corwin's met at least 5 of Korra's predecessors (Aang through Yangchen), so in his mind, they're separate entities.

>>"Have you started on her betrothal necklace yet?"
>
>Hrrm. Corwin is actually going to make one?
>
>It seems a bit... I dunno. Cultural appropriation is usually something
>that is not cool. Aang wasn't exactly thrilled at all those people
>dressing up like Air Nomads just because they thought the outfits were
>nifty.
>
>Might be overthinking it, but it pinged my radar.

You're overthinking it. As stated above, Corwin's been coming to Diqiu since he was 4. That's nearly 10 years (off and on) of visiting the world, under the auspices of the Avatar, who's strongly Water Tribe. If he'd managed to come in 2405 (instead of him giving Utena spaceflight lessons), Korra would've taken him Ice Dodging and made him an honorary member of the tribe. He's not appropriating as much as "loaning" from his good friend and godmother the Avatar.

>>Korra turned the paper back around and read them a bit of the
>>article, in which Emily Wong speculated that this small invasion of
>>interesting foreigners gathering around "our Avatar"
>

[ Emily Wong Plot Discussion snipped. ]

This will also be discussed further in a later post.

... Though some of what you brought up does have bearing to what the White Lotus were up to. Diqiu's relationship with the Outer Galaxy via Zipang isn't nearly as clear-cut as you might think.

>Despite Ben's previous Miles Mayhem analogy to Hiroshi, the man was
>undeniably pretty brilliant. He invented the automobile

Point of Order: Hiroshi Sato did not invent the Automobile. He invented the assembly line process that made cheap automobiles possible.

> AND
>heavier-than-air flight AND the tank. Any one of those by itself would
>have been enough. I don't know if being one of Skuld's Chosen has a
>moral component involved (that is, if you have to not just be a
>cosmically good engineer, but also have a moral compass that's
>agreeable to her) but if it doesn't, I'd say in the context of UF
>Hiroshi would definitely be in contention.

One of Skuld's earliest Chosen was Cave Johnson. One does not need to be verifiably sane to be brilliant, after all.

>>"While we're waiting for the next
>>match, who wants refills?" Pointing to various companions, she ticked
>>off their preferred snacks. "Popcorn, fire flakes, soda, lychee juice?
>>Rory? More rice balls? Amy, you want another squid-on-a-stick?"
>
>What, no fire gummies? Korra seems like a fire gummy kind of girl.
>Especially the gold ones shaped like little dragons heads, she loves
>those.

I... honestly forgot about the fire gummies. ^_^;; Though Korra tends to lean towards carnavorism off the island, since it's still vegetarian only on it and Korra lives and eats there half the time.

>>In his place, sporting the green number ninety-nine, making his Major
>>League Bending debut... the completely unknown Watari Karasu!"
>
>Ah. Language puns! Always solid.
>
>Korra, if pressed, is going to claim she simply used a completely
>valid translation of Corwin's name in standard, isn't she?

Nope, that one's all Corwin.

>>"I bet right around now, Azana's wishing she hadn't listened
>>when Karana said she knew someone who could take over for Xiang Wan,"
>>color commentator Zheng remarked from Korra's phone radio.
>>
>>"I'm fairly sure Zanya didn't really know what she was talking
>>about there," play-by-play man Kenji said dryly.
>
>This is probably me being confused, but... I'm not sure how we jumped
>from Azana and Karana to Zanya in this exchange, as she's on the other
>team and doesn't seem pertinent to the conversation at hand. I want to
>say her name was used by mistake, maybe? Except I have a long track
>record of being wrong when I think things like that.

You're confused. Kenji's talking about the "Don't bring your boyfriends in the ring" line that Zanya had made to Karana. It's a long-standing grudge.

>Narratively speaking, I might have had Corwin lose anyway (in order to
>set up the rematch) but that's such a minor point.

And when, pray tell, would that rematch be had? The primary thrust of the series is still Kate/Utena/Corwin/Anthy, not the Pro Bending Playoffs. And Corwin was a temp substitution, anyway. Though there are at least several blogs now pumping for him to join SOME team out there, if not the Fire Ferrets.

>>"HAH!" said Nall involuntarily; then he composed himself and
>>said with heavy mock gravity, "Uh, I mean, scandalous, scandalous." He
>>glared at Corwin. "Manwhore."
>
>Says the guy who is currently on the rebound and enjoying every second
>of it.

On the rebound, yes. Enjoying it, no.

>Diqiu and Known Space (well, I suppose Diqiu is technically part of
>known space, but you get what I mean) could potentially have much to
>teach other when it comes to weird-ass mind/body powers. The Diqiu
>approach is more holistic, but the mind-focused approach of known
>space can produce some powerful results that the focus on martial arts
>may have blinded the traditional bending masters to. Aegis should
>probably see about sending a liaison out, if they can do it without
>attracting the Corps overmuch.

That all depends on how fast and how thorough further cross-organizational exchange occurs. Bending doesn't always 'work right' out in the big galaxy (as Korra noted back in Try Try Again, and she's the freaking Avatar), and while Diqiu benders have developed workarounds, it isn't always helpful when they're off Diqiu/Zipang.

>Is psi talent (by which I mean traditional psi talent, possibly
>including force powers) known in Diqiu, if I may ask and if it isn't a
>plot point? I imagine their resident psychics and mages all basically
>becomes shamans of some type, dealing with spirits and generally being
>weird and mystical in a different way than benders can be weird and
>mystical. That's just me, tho.

That is not an impossible hypothesis.

>[ Renaming Discussion snipped. ]

Well, on my part, the whole of "Taken By Storm" was going to be one movement, period -- or one movement broken up into 3 parts. Which means we'd have 3 more to go, if we kept with the 7 movement thing...

... make of that what you will.

--- Philip





Philip J. Moyer
Contributing Writer, Editor and Artist (and Moderator) -- Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
CEO of MTS, High Poobah Of Artwork, and High Priest Of the Church Of Aerianne -- Magnetic Terrapin Studios
"Insert Pithy Comment Here"


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JeanneHedge
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10. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #9
 
   >And when, pray tell, would that rematch be had? The primary thrust of
>the series is still Kate/Utena/Corwin/Anthy,

Nice to hear Kate's still in the mix. To my mind, she pretty much disappeared (with guest appearances) when they got out of high school and Utena-Corwin expanded and consolidated their universal domination.


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Gryphonadmin
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13. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #9
 
   >One of Skuld's earliest Chosen was Cave Johnson. One does not
>need to be verifiably sane to be brilliant, after all.

Oh, man, she was really hoping you wouldn't bring that up. :)

(In Skuld's defense, such as that decision even is defensible, Cave wasn't evil, just crazy. Hiroshi was sort of both.)

--G.
-><-
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pjmoyermoderator
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14. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #13
 
   >>One of Skuld's earliest Chosen was Cave Johnson. One does not
>>need to be verifiably sane to be brilliant, after all.
>
>Oh, man, she was really hoping you wouldn't bring that up. :)
>
>(In Skuld's defense, such as that decision even is defensible, Cave
>wasn't evil, just crazy. Hiroshi was sort of both.)

Well, Hiroshi wasn't evil until he went mad, and by then, the genius subroutines were already entrenched.

Also, you're right about him being somewhat more of an integrator than a straight-on inventor. After all, the Fire Nation had Airships and the Tundra Tanks 70 years before Korra's time. It was Hiroshi who refined the airships to their Police and Equalist forms, and who thought of putting an anthropomorphic top onto treads. Still not sure who was responsible for heavier-than-air propelled flight, though.

--- Philip





Philip J. Moyer
Contributing Writer, Editor and Artist (and Moderator) -- Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
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Gryphonadmin
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11. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Sep-11-13 AT 03:55 PM (EDT)
 
>Oh man, did Ikki just burn Mako?

Well, she just burned somebody. That's all {I'll|Phil will permit me to} say at this time.

>As near as I can tell, the reason an enormous chunk of the White Lotus
>leadership decided to try and prevent Korra from hanging out with
>Corwin is that they didn't want her going off-plane where if anything
>happened to her they couldn't be sure of the consequences to the
>Avatar Spirit, yes?

That's where it started. In failure analysis we might call it a proximate cause.

As Jinora indicates - and she might not have been as clear about it as she could've been; keep in mind that she wasn't actually a participant in the conspiracy, and had only learned about it herself the previous week - it began as an effort to keep Korra at home as much as possible, at least until someone could figure out how disastrous their worst-case scenario really was.

Then Utena got involved and things started getting more complicated.

>But a massive conspiracy?

Nine people is your idea of massive? Hm.

>I mean, lets unpack this.

Never say that again.

>These guys don't even think "hmm, we have
>reason to believe that occupying positions of cosmological
>significance in Cephiro will interact badly with our own
>cosmologically significant person. Let's do some research. In the
>meantime, keep Korra in the dark." They just have vague, unrealized
>fears that maybe something bad will happen if Korra dies off-plane.
>Not just "goes off-plane" but "dies off-plane." And their reaction to
>this is engage in an incredibly shoddy conspiracy to prevent her from
>ever again interacting with people she's befriended offplane?

Not quite.

Like I said, it started with a scenario more like what you outlined in the first quotation-marks bit above. After that, though, it sort of... got out of hand. They started out wanting to keep her from leaving until they could get a handle on what it would mean if she did and met with some fatal misfortunte while Outside. Then some of them began to develop the fear (bordering on paranoia) that (The Notorious) Chief Gryphon or, as he grew toward adulthood, Corwin might eventually lead her to choose to leave and just never come back.

Then Utena entered the picture and started doing things like standing right in the middle of not one but two significant disruptions within the Earth Alliance, fighting pirates across half the galaxy, participating in the Klingon civil war, revolutionizing the Jedi, and so forth. She changes people's lives just by being near them. Many of the White Lotus elders are reasonably convinced that Korra's life doesn't require changing to that degree. And, well, given the way their lives are entangled, how do you keep Korra way from Utena and still let her anywhere near Corwin? Obviously you don't.

To an outside observer, this is plainly an unsustainable strategy, but by that point, through a reasonably gradual process of accumulation, the matter had evolved from something thoughtful and nuanced to something simplistic and basically fear-driven, and thereby no longer fully under the control of the people engaged in it. It's a bit like... did you ever tell a small lie to get out of some minor inconvenience, and then to keep it from being exposed you had to tell a bigger one, until before you knew it you were so hopelessly mired in falsehood that you were a) certain to give it away at some point and b) no longer entirely certain yourself what the truth even used to be? It's a bit like that.

One thing I should probably have made clearer (possibly with an interjection from one of the other conspirators), but which Korra pretty plainly was aware of based on the way she virtually ignored the others, was that the more egregious parts of the mess were basically all on Tenneq. The others didn't even know he had gotten so far down that rabbit hole he'd actually started stealing the Avatar's mail. Looking at it, yes, but they do that anyway - do you have any idea how much mail she gets?

The last indignity, the one that blew the whole matter apart, was when Tenneq saw the first invitation to Corwin's wedding. At that moment he knew he'd finally come up against something he couldn't fudge his way around. There was no way, short of somehow inventing an actual future-of-the-world-is-at-stake crisis in the next few weeks, he was going to be able to convince Korra not to attend that wedding. Miss connections with the gang when the Valiant tour hit Zipang the previous year because of "urgent" pirate problems in the Mo Ce Sea, sure. Just barely not manage to make things line up such that a visit to New Avalon could come off during the fall of 2406, doable.

Talk her out of attending his wedding? Not without the actual world being on actual fire.

At that point he realized that all was lost - she was not only going to go to that wedding, she would inevitably, once she got to comparing notes with the kids, realize that there had to have been more than coincidence involved in their troubles over the previous few years. The whole matter was going to blow up in his face, and he was going to have to admit that a) they had overreacted b) they hadn't accomplished what they originally set out to do when they started c) the whole thing had spiraled out of control and d) it was mostly his fault.

So he panicked and took the Bugblatter Beast exit: He stuck the invitation in a pigeonhole on his desk and pretended that if he ignored it thoroughly enough, the whole business would go away. And the second one. Perhaps in some corner ofhis mind he thought if he could just hold out until she had missed it, she wouldn't pursue the matter further.

Instead, he not only brought about the explosion he'd been afraid of, he probably made it worse than it would otherwise have been.

>Intercepting wedding invitations? I mean, that's something you
>only do if you're desperate

Yes, exactly.

>As always, not trying to be jerk about this. Just calling it like I
>see it, and the way I see it, this plot thread ended badly.

Heh, "ended".

>I'm
>still not sure about the wisdom of reaching for Kyoshi specifically,
>but whatever else you can say about Kyoshi when she opens her mouth
>people shut the fuck up, sit up, and pay attention.

This is Kyoshi we're talking about. "Reaching for" is probably not the phrase you wanted, so much as "standing the hell out of the way of". Korra, I have a few remarks I should like to put to the learned masters. Stand right there for a moment if you'd be so good.

>Minor quibble: I might not have used "morning" here.

That's when bath time is, usually. You know, when the water is around?

Anyway, she doesn't necessarily literally mean morning. For most of this past summer, my "morning" was from 12 to 4 PM. :)

>I'd like to note there's a certain amount of irony in Jinora being all
>"man, those OTHER Lotuses, what dicks for trying to control her life,
>am I right?" straight to a long a conversation with Korra's friends
>about how best to control her life. :)

Who's talking about controlling it? Jinora's talking about enriching it.

(Possibly, given that it's Corwin and Utena, enriching it like you enrich uranium, but unlike the other learned masters, Jinora seems willing to risk it. :)

>This is ever-so-slightly arrogant on Utena's part. It takes more than
>owning property somewhere to have a stake in what happens there, and
>the ability to casually purchase multiple homes anywhere you want
>doesn't mean you have a stake in the community.

It's still where you start, for chrissakes. Does she really need to unroll that entire carpet out loud? Really?

>Trivia: according to stills I've seen, this Friday will feature the
>first confirmed sighting of a genuine redhead in the Avatar universe.
>Not just "auburn" like Suki but "actual flame-colored red."

Maybe it's real, maybe it's Maybelline.

>"I brought all this cash just so I could bribe the customs man! I even
>wore this skirt in case I needed to show a little leg to seal the
>deal. When did this town get so boring?"

"Have you seen Amy drive, Doctor?"

"No."

"Neither, did, her, driving examiner."

>>He was -so- shocked, in fact, that he unconsciously reverted to
>>his old default flying-cat form; he'd been cuing that action up when she
>>arrived,
>
>I think you mean "queuing that action up", as in, Nall had that action
>in the queue. Cuing, assuming you're using it as the present
>participle of "cue", doesn't meant that.

No, I mean exactly what I said. Grüß Gott, man, I know you're old enough to have made a mix tape. Just.

>... Katara doesn't know Skuld very well.
>
>(Valhalla sometimes seems like it has a revolving door these days,
>especially if you know the right people, even if you didn't earn your
>Right of Return.)

I'm not thinking of anyone who didn't have that turning up in Midgard lately, apart from Gin Shepard, who skipped over that stage with a minor apotheosis...

>>"Have you started on her betrothal necklace yet?"
>
>Hrrm. Corwin is actually going to make one?
>
>It seems a bit... I dunno. Cultural appropriation is usually something
>that is not cool.

Is is appropriation when one of them gave it to you? When you have a genuine affection for the South Pole, its people, its cuisine, and so forth? When you've made the Water Tribe's most famous daughter your own daughter's godmother, and, oh yes, she's also your own? I dunno. It seems more like respectful admiration to me. It's not like he's one of these kids going around with the Japanese character for fuckwit tattooed on their necks, thinking it says beauty because that's what the needleslinger told them.

(Also, it's doubtful either Utena or Anthy would wear theirs much; the Water Tribe's colors don't really work for either of them.)

>Aang wasn't exactly thrilled at all those people
>dressing up like Air Nomads just because they thought the outfits were
>nifty.

That might have something to do with the fact that someone murdered all of them. Tends to put an edge on stuff like that. People wearing Water Tribe jewelry? Not so much.

>I imagine some debate between Emily and her editor about whether or
>not 'Krew' was appropriate to use, before deciding it was a bit too
>precious for such an august publication as the Tribune.

The United Daily's styleguide probably permits that, but the Trib prefers to hold itself slightly above the scrum. Which is a bit rich when it has something like Section 4 in the first place, but there it is.

(musings on Emily)

D'you know, we might get to this. :)

>Platinum is also way less malleable and generally tougher and more
>durable than gold. Higher melting point, too.

True, though a bit like saying that Play-Doh is less malleable than, say, custard. For many practical purposes it's a little academic.

>Despite Ben's previous Miles Mayhem analogy to Hiroshi, the man was
>undeniably pretty brilliant. He invented the automobile AND
>heavier-than-air flight AND the tank.

You may be overselling the man a little. For instance, he pioneered assembly-line production of automobiles, much like Henry Ford, but Ford didn't invent the automobile either, and I would tend seriously to doubt that Hiroshi Sato was Diqiu's Karl Benz. He was a very clever chap, but I suspect his genius lay much more in the commodification of inventions than the inventing of inventions, particularly in his latter years. Until turning to supervillainy, anyway. After that, who knows? It amuses me to envision a sort of villain Edison, with a poorly paid and completely unsung legion of employees beavering away on the actual death ray somewhere in the background, but who knows, maybe Hiroshi really did invent the mecha tank all by himself. Despite "tank" being in the name and the crawler tracks (which existed well before they were put on tanks in the real world), they aren't really very tanklike, but I will concede that they are clever.

>I don't know if being one of Skuld's Chosen has a
>moral component involved

NOTE: Yes.

>>"I'm fairly sure Zanya didn't really know what she was talking
>>about there," play-by-play man Kenji said dryly.
>
>This is probably me being confused, but... I'm not sure how we jumped
>from Azana and Karana to Zanya in this exchange, as she's on the other
>team and doesn't seem pertinent to the conversation at hand.

Kenji is referring to Zanya having called "Watari Karasu" Karana's boyfriend while taunting the Fire Ferrets after receiving her penalty, which was picked up by the field mics.

>>"Dr. Rockalanche -doesn't know that.- He keeps trying to
>>cover her left flank even though she doesn't really need it. That's
>>more interesting."
>
>Ugh, really?
>
>I know he just joined the team and all, and this is just an exhibition
>match, but man, my estimation of the Ice Wraiths as hard-nosed
>chargers who skirt the rules just went way, way down.

I'm not sure how those things tie together, but basically, there's a really specific reason why Zanya wears a patch on her left eye, it doesn't actually have anything to do with cheating, and Dr. Rockalanche isn't cleared to know about it. He would eventually have realized (as Corwin did) that she can see on that side, and would then presumably have asked about it and been told to mind his goddam business, but it's questionable now whether they'll get even that far in their professional relationship.

We, however, will get to find out what it is next time.

>Should be "her face" rather than "her fact", yes?

Yeah, the great tragedy of typos is that sometimes they coincidentally make other valid words.

>Also, I say fie to the 'draconic heritage' bit. That's your guilt
>talking. You ARE a dragon, Nall. Don't let anyone else tell you what
>that means. Your cultural heritage is just that; cultural.

He didn't say heritage, he said nature. As in, he is at least under the impression (whether or not it is correct) that being a dragon brings some things innately along with it, one of which is that in a situation like that, someone is going to end up dead. See also the old folk tale about the frog and the scorpion.

>Is psi talent (by which I mean traditional psi talent, possibly
>including force powers) known in Diqiu, if I may ask and if it isn't a
>plot point?

It isn't. Either. Well, the Force might not be entirely unknown, though it's not known by that name, but the Diqiu branch of the human genome has produced no known "standard" telepaths, telekinetics et al. as of yet. Or wizards in the traditional sense either, come to that. There are the occasional Weird Non-Traditional Mystics (Guru Pathik comes to mind, and in a UF context one is tempted to suspect that General Iroh the Elder may have been Force-sensitive in addition to being a firebender), but nobody with immediately recognizable "outside galaxy" psi powers.

>If I might ask, out of curiosity, was there a Plan A for little
>Annabelle's entrance into the world before you guys created Diqiu a
>couple months ago and slotted it and Korra into UF?

Not really. I mean, it was always going to happen on that day, just... wherever they happened to be. Frontrunners before the Diqiu plotline started unfolding itself included Castle Eyrie on Titan, the cabin in the Shinguuji ancestral woods on Ishiyama, and, a bit boringly, Philip Boyce Memorial Medical Center in New Avalon.

>I mean, clearly she's been planned for some time. Years, in fact.

Twelve of them, if the date stamp on Interlude on Titan is to be believed. (In fact, the outline for that interlude existed long before the rest of the Symphony even got there, despite the fact that I had absolutely no idea how I could conceivably (pardon the pun) justify or even explain it.

That suddenly became more of an issue than it had been, recently, but that's a different story.

>But Corwin sort of replaced
>Gryphon as the de-facto male lead in UF awhile back

Somewhere, probably in his office, G just looked up from his desk with a puzzled expression, then shrugged and went back to work, muttering, "Welcome to it, I suppose..."

>(to the extent the
>universe has ever had just one leading man) and Utena is, well, Utena,
>so I kind of figured that their kid would have had their origin,
>circumstances of conception and birth, and likely future life plan
>fairly well conceived prior to these last couple months.

Well, for what it's worth, Corwin and Utena are probably not having children of their own. Utena wasn't interested before she saw what Anthy went through just now, and now, having seen it? NFW, Jack. You want more than the one child, if Anthy's not on board, you just go 'head and put an ad in the paper, son. I'm sure it won't take you long to round up some volunteers. :)

>Finally... hmm. Not sure how to couch this. Have you guys given any
>thought to possibly re-naming Symphony 5? Admittedly, I do not know
>your plans for future parts of it

Indeed you don't.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
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pjmoyermoderator
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17. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #11
 
   >>I'd like to note there's a certain amount of irony in Jinora being all
>>"man, those OTHER Lotuses, what dicks for trying to control her life,
>>am I right?" straight to a long a conversation with Korra's friends
>>about how best to control her life. :)
>
>Who's talking about controlling it? Jinora's talking about enriching
>it.
>
>(Possibly, given that it's Corwin and Utena, enriching it like you
>enrich uranium, but unlike the other learned masters, Jinora seems
>willing to risk it. :)

Something that people on the Diqiu side occasionally forget (having had her around for so long), is that Korra herself is very much an instigator of change (even as she serves as an agent of balance for her world). I mean, just look at Utena... a week ago, she barely knew Korra, aside from Corwin's occasional story and photo, and now she's giving Annabelle, the Trinity's Daughter, "Korra" as her middle name.

The effect runs both ways, I'm just saying. :)

(Korra's first days in New Avalon were... special. And this was back when there was barely an IPO to speak of.)

>>I imagine some debate between Emily and her editor about whether or
>>not 'Krew' was appropriate to use, before deciding it was a bit too
>>precious for such an august publication as the Tribune.
>
>The United Daily's styleguide probably permits that, but the
>Trib prefers to hold itself slightly above the scrum. Which is
>a bit rich when it has something like Section 4 in the first place,
>but there it is.

The Tribune's Society page is a holdover from its early days of print, when Society events (mostly the kind of thing seen in the Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation) were much more frequent, and keeping tabs on who was involved with what was something of great interest to most of the intelligentsia of the city. Nowadays, Section 4 manages to hold on by mostly covering the Arts, Culture, and Entertainment (things that aren't necessarily news(tm), but of interest to certain groups of people), and the Society functions still manage to hang on by their toe-claws.

--- Philip





Philip J. Moyer
Contributing Writer, Editor and Artist (and Moderator) -- Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
CEO of MTS, High Poobah Of Artwork, and High Priest Of the Church Of Aerianne -- Magnetic Terrapin Studios
"Insert Pithy Comment Here"


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Mercutio
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19. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #11
 
   LAST EDITED ON Sep-11-13 AT 11:59 PM (EDT)
 
>As Jinora indicates - and she might not have been as clear about it as
>she could've been; keep in mind that she wasn't actually a participant
>in the conspiracy, and had only learned about it herself the previous
>week - it began as an effort to keep Korra at home as much as
>possible, at least until someone could figure out how disastrous their
>worst-case scenario really was.

That reasoning, at least, I'll admit makes a certain amount of sense.

>Then Utena got involved and things started getting more complicated.

So like every other thing Utena has ever gotten involved in, then. :)

>>But a massive conspiracy?
>
>Nine people is your idea of massive? Hm.

Well, I had been assuming they weren't in it alone. These are Master Lotuses we're talking about here, one assumed they enlisted underlings and agents to do their bidding and provide help and information. If nothing else, the workload seems like it would be too much for just nine people. I mean, by the end they must have been exhausted. :)

>>I mean, lets unpack this.
>
>Never say that again.

Er... all right? I find it a handy phrase when I went to segue into... well, into unpacking something. I could say 'deconstruct' instead of 'unpack' but that sounds depressingly pretentious to me, like I'm about to put on a cardigan and start quoting Derrida.

>>These guys don't even think "hmm, we have
>>reason to believe that occupying positions of cosmological
>>significance in Cephiro will interact badly with our own
>>cosmologically significant person. Let's do some research. In the
>>meantime, keep Korra in the dark."
><snip>
>...
>
>Not quite.
><long explanation snipped>

First off, thanks for taking the time. I know it's easy for me to criticize after the fact, whereas you're the one who, y'know, actually devotes much of his life to producing free entertainment for the rest of us.

I should say... hmm. What led me to the conclusions I did was... well, when I think 'Master Lotus' I think 'Piandao, Bumi, Jeong Jeong, and Pakku.' To a lesser extent I also think 'Sokka' as it seemed like they were grooming him for membership. While they all have different strengths, these guys were all very smart and cultured and above all competent in their manifold areas of expertise.

This didn't mean they were necessarily always going to make good decisions. Jeong Jeong's view of his own element is indicative of some deep-seated self-loathing and war guilt. Pakku was kind of a misogynist. But while they weren't always wise, they were always at least -smart-.

I'm reminded of... I forgot who said it, either Mark Rein*Hagen or Geoff Grabowski. One of the White Wolf guys who developed the Storyteller RPG system, anyway. They'd taken a lot of flak from people saying things like "You have all these NPC's with insane, stupid agendas who are going to literally doom themselves and everyone else if they're carried out, but whenever they show up on-screen they're always incredibly competent and one step ahead of everyone and really, really hard to stop. Are they smart or are they stupid? Make up your mind!"

And the reply was, "You will note that within this system, Intelligence is a quantifiable attribute, whereas there's no such thing as 'Wisdom.' Very, very smart people will often do things that are foolish and downright unwise... but they will be foolish things executed with superhuman competence and dedication."

So when I think of a bunch of Master Lotuses ending up in over their heads, I kind of figure like even though they might have done foolish and unwise things, they will have executed those foolish and unwise things amazingly well.

Anyway, you provide a highly nuanced and, indeed, very interesting look into how even an organization like the Order can tailspin into a failure state. It's totally believable, to, or at least believable enough to pass muster. Especially this:

>To an outside observer, this is plainly an unsustainable strategy, but
>by that point, through a reasonably gradual process of accumulation,
>the matter had evolved from something thoughtful and nuanced to
>something simplistic and basically fear-driven, and thereby no longer
>fully under the control of the people engaged in it. It's a bit
>like... did you ever tell a small lie to get out of some minor
>inconvenience, and then to keep it from being exposed you had to tell
>a bigger one, until before you knew it you were so hopelessly mired in
>falsehood that you were a) certain to give it away at some point and
>b) no longer entirely certain yourself what the truth even used to be?
> It's a bit like that.

Now THAT makes a ton of sense. As well as:

>One thing I should probably have made clearer (possibly with an
>interjection from one of the other conspirators), but which Korra
>pretty plainly was aware of based on the way she virtually ignored the
>others, was that the more egregious parts of the mess were basically
>all on Tenneq. The others didn't even know he had gotten so
>far down that rabbit hole he'd actually started stealing the
>Avatar's mail
.

Ah, a single point of failure. NOW you're talking.

I still think it doesn't come off as clear in the text as it should, but knowing the background makes it all come together. I'd have liked to see more about the gradual building up and then collapse of the edifice of lies they built (I love reading about how institutions serve, succeed, and fail the people in them) but that might just be me. And yeah, it would work better, both atmospherically and in terms of selling people on "oh man, the OWL has -really fucked up this time-" that it was mainly one guy, as opposed to complete systemic failure.

I would love to read about how the OWL suffered complete systemic failure and needed to be rebuilt, of course, but I somehow doubt that's the kind of story the Production Team is very interested in telling, so best not to even bring it into the picture.

>Heh, "ended".

... there's more? It -seemed- like a done deal.

Well color me super interested, then.

>This is Kyoshi we're talking about. "Reaching for" is probably not
>the phrase you wanted, so much as "standing the hell out of the way
>of". Korra, I have a few remarks I should like to put to the learned
>masters. Stand right there for a moment if you'd be so good.

True.

And hell, at least Korra remembers the conversation. The first few times the other Avatars overpowered Aang he didn't even know what the hell they were doing while they were borrowing his meatsack. ("So... what just happened?" "Uh... you kind of confessed. Sorry.")

>>This is ever-so-slightly arrogant on Utena's part. It takes more than
>>owning property somewhere to have a stake in what happens there, and
>>the ability to casually purchase multiple homes anywhere you want
>>doesn't mean you have a stake in the community.
>
>It's still where you start, for chrissakes. Does she really
>need to unroll that entire carpet out loud? Really?

No, not really, but it's the sort of thing I do keep an eye on even in fiction.

Let's just say in the real world, I've had to deal face to face with people who think owning a condo they spend two weeks a year in gives them the right to go to the County Board and bitch about local development plans in... unproductive ways.

(Not saying for a second Utena and Corwin will ever turn into the Broadbanks, but I do think part of the reason they'll never turn into the Broadbanks is periodic self-reflection and maybe even a pinch of self-doubt.)

>>I think you mean "queuing that action up", as in, Nall had that action
>>in the queue. Cuing, assuming you're using it as the present
>>participle of "cue", doesn't meant that.
>
>No, I mean exactly what I said. Grüß Gott, man, I know you're old
>enough to have made a mix tape. Just.

PRESCRIPTIVIST MERC: "It still doesn't mean that, though! Just because some people use it that way doesn't mean they're correct to do so. It's unproductive linguistic drift and dilutes the actual meaning of the word 'cue.'"

DESCRIPTIVIST MERC: "Aren't we the guy who once told his english teacher that the split-infinitive and preposition rules were thought up by Oxford dons with unhealthy hard-ons for Latin who were three centuries in their graves, and that language should reflect current usage with flexible standards? Also, you've never won a grammar argument with Hutchins. EVER. Want to go 0-for-5?"

PRESCRIPTIVIST MERC: "... touche."

Also, I did in fact miss mix tapes. Went straight to burned CDs.

>>(Valhalla sometimes seems like it has a revolving door these days,
>>especially if you know the right people, even if you didn't earn your
>>Right of Return.)
>
>I'm not thinking of anyone who didn't have that turning up in Midgard
>lately, apart from Gin Shepard, who skipped over that stage with a
>minor apotheosis...

The 66th Einherjar went en-masse to Midgard for Operation TRIDENT without formally exercising their right, did they not? I mean, they went BACK to Valhalla after it was done, yes?

Admittedly, that wasn't exactly a pleasure cruise; they were working.

There's also the fact that if you're tight with a god and haven't yet died, you can basically walk in and out of Asgard at will, not exactly a privilege available to the general public. Although if some clever soul were to invent a method of reliable mass-producible cross-planar travel, I'd be interested in what would happen.

>>It seems a bit... I dunno. Cultural appropriation is usually something
>>that is not cool.
>
>Is is appropriation when one of them gave it to you? When you have a
>genuine affection for the South Pole, its people, its cuisine, and so
>forth? When you've made the Water Tribe's most famous daughter your
>own daughter's godmother, and, oh yes, she's also your own? I
>dunno. It seems more like respectful admiration to me. It's not like
>he's one of these kids going around with the Japanese character for
>fuckwit tattooed on their necks, thinking it says beauty
>because that's what the needleslinger told them.

I was way more preachy about that than I should have been, wasn't I?

And yeah, guys walking around with buddhist sutras they have no idea what they mean tattooed down one shoulder sprung to mind.

It's a legitimately complex issue, even in fiction. Fortunately, in fiction cultural boundaries and importance can generally be defined any way one likes, which in this context I suppose makes it more like, hmm, asian people adopting the concept of wedding bands (which no westerner gives a fuck about) than it is, say, white girls deciding to wear bindis because Gwen Stefani did it.

>>Aang wasn't exactly thrilled at all those people
>>dressing up like Air Nomads just because they thought the outfits were
>>nifty.
>
>That might have something to do with the fact that someone murdered
>all of them
. Tends to put an edge on stuff like that. People
>wearing Water Tribe jewelry? Not so much.

True, although I imagine that even nowadays, Jinora would take a dim view of Air Nomad saris becoming a popular fashion choice amongst people who had no intention of becoming Air Acolytes.

>(musings on Emily)
>
>D'you know, we might get to this. :)

Oh, no doubt. I was just putting the theory out there. Three reasons; typing these things out gives me a clearer understanding of your work, if I'm right I want to be able to brag about it, and if I'm wrong it'll encourage me to be humble.

Win/win situation, really.

Also I like the sound of my own voice.

>>Despite Ben's previous Miles Mayhem analogy to Hiroshi, the man was
>>undeniably pretty brilliant. He invented the automobile AND
>>heavier-than-air flight AND the tank.
>
>You may be overselling the man a little.

Entirely possible! I like Hiroshi a lot more than I like Amon, both within the universe and at the meta level; I feel like he had a much stronger arc than Amon did and that he still has the potential for use as a villain.

>For instance, he pioneered
>assembly-line production of automobiles, much like Henry Ford, but
>Ford didn't invent the automobile either, and I would tend seriously
>to doubt that Hiroshi Sato was Diqiu's Karl Benz.

I'd like to thank you and Phil for the correction here; I assumed Hiroshi had actually invented the thing (that's how people talk about him in the series, using that specific word) whereas doing my research did in fact reveal, no, all he did was marry a gasoline engine (previously they'd been using steam) to a smaller chassis and then re-brand it with his own name.

I do stand by my belief in his engineering, and not just business, prowess though. I tend to think of him as having both, like post-Crisis Lex Luthor.

>>I don't know if being one of Skuld's Chosen has a
>>moral component involved
>
>NOTE: Yes.

Fair enough. I like both Paladin systems of divine favor and Exalted systems of divine favor. I'm easy like that.

>>Ugh, really?
>>
>>I know he just joined the team and all, and this is just an exhibition
>>match, but man, my estimation of the Ice Wraiths as hard-nosed
>>chargers who skirt the rules just went way, way down.
>
>I'm not sure how those things tie together,

Well, if you're really serious about winning, or at least about building your brand, by walking right up the line of permissible actions (and then waggling your ass over it) you'd better know what you're doing, because faces get slack cut; heels do not. Not telling the guy on your blind side that you are not, in fact, blind on that side ain't what you'd call a smart move... if your main priority is to function as an effective pro-bending team.

And I see by your later explanation that Zanya, in fact, has other priorities when it comes to that eye. So... fair enough!

>>Should be "her face" rather than "her fact", yes?
>
>Yeah, the great tragedy of typos is that sometimes they coincidentally
>make other valid words.

I am coming to believe that my ability to spot or stumble across typos (even in nine-year-old works!) is paid for with an unerring inability to make any kind of accurate analysis about choice of words of words or grammar. It's like a reverse superpower.

>>Also, I say fie to the 'draconic heritage' bit. That's your guilt
>>talking. You ARE a dragon, Nall. Don't let anyone else tell you what
>>that means. Your cultural heritage is just that; cultural.
>
>He didn't say heritage, he said nature.

I meant to type nature and then go off on that, but for some reason I typed heritage and then went off on THAT.

Your point about the frog and scorpion is well-taken, but I do stand by my assessment that Nall is making the mistake of interpreting things that are part of draconic society for things that are part of draconic nature. Dragons may not be exactly like humans, but I somehow think they're enough like humans that those two Venn diagrams don't overlap as much as people think they do.

>>Is psi talent (by which I mean traditional psi talent, possibly
>>including force powers) known in Diqiu, if I may ask and if it isn't a
>>plot point?
>
>It isn't. Either. Well, the Force might not be entirely unknown,
>though it's not known by that name, but the Diqiu branch of the human
>genome has produced no known "standard" telepaths, telekinetics et al.
>as of yet. Or wizards in the traditional sense either, come to that.
>There are the occasional Weird Non-Traditional Mystics (Guru
>Pathik comes to mind, and in a UF context one is tempted to suspect
>that General Iroh the Elder may have been Force-sensitive in addition
>to being a firebender), but nobody with immediately recognizable
>"outside galaxy" psi powers.

Interesting. Leaves them a bit vulnerable to the Corps. Thank you.

>>If I might ask, out of curiosity, was there a Plan A for little
>>Annabelle's entrance into the world before you guys created Diqiu a
>>couple months ago and slotted it and Korra into UF?
>
>Not really. I mean, it was always going to happen on that day,
>just... wherever they happened to be. Frontrunners before the Diqiu
>plotline started unfolding itself included Castle Eyrie on Titan, the
>cabin in the Shinguuji ancestral woods on Ishiyama, and, a bit
>boringly, Philip Boyce Memorial Medical Center in New Avalon.

Eventually, this universe will get crazy enough that, for its stars, being born in a regular hospital with an attending physician will make you the weird, exciting one.

>>I mean, clearly she's been planned for some time. Years, in fact.
>
>Twelve of them, if the date stamp on Interlude on Titan is to
>be believed.

Ever since we started passing the 10th/20th anniversaries of various seminal works, I've been wishing a bit that their timestamps had month/day rather than just year. (I've been toying with doing, like, a book club thing. 'This month, in 1994, two important Golden Age stories came out. Let's go for a trip down memory lane...')

>>But Corwin sort of replaced
>>Gryphon as the de-facto male lead in UF awhile back
>
>Somewhere, probably in his office, G just looked up from his desk with
>a puzzled expression, then shrugged and went back to work, muttering,
>"Welcome to it, I suppose..."

Hey, you can't say Corwin wasn't properly educated for his role in the grand scheme of things. He's better at it than his dad, even! Gryphon didn't topple his first government until he was in his twenties, and I'm pretty sure Corwin has gotten more girls than the old man had when he was at a similar age.

Gryphon was probably still ahead in "baddies killed" at the same age, though; fleet actions will do.

Not sure about the scorecard on planets saved.

>Well, for what it's worth, Corwin and Utena are probably not having
>children of their own. Utena wasn't interested before she saw
>what Anthy went through just now, and now, having seen it? NFW, Jack.
> You want more than the one child, if Anthy's not on board, you just
>go 'head and put an ad in the paper, son. I'm sure it won't take you
>long to round up some volunteers. :)

Well, to be all practical about it, it's the 25th century. If the Trinity find child-rearing rewarding enough to want to fill out the remaining two slots in their genetic possibility space, they can just gestate the kid in a tube. Hell, I'm willing to bet that's civilian technology, regularly used by women who either have health risks with a traditional pregnancy or just do NOT want to deal with our incredibly inefficient and high-risk gestation process.

I mean, look at Mileva. Her mom grew her in an outlaw lab using genetic materiel (not even REPRODUCTIVE materiel, even) procured under completely unsanitary circumstances. And she is just adorable! Any parent would be glad to have a kid like that. :)

>>Finally... hmm. Not sure how to couch this. Have you guys given any
>>thought to possibly re-naming Symphony 5? Admittedly, I do not know
>>your plans for future parts of it
>
>Indeed you don't.

Yeah, I had the feeling that everything I said there was gonna be non-applicable, but it seemed worth at least pointing out.

-Merc
Keep Rat

"Astronomy will now be conducting star gazing sessions only with blindfolds on every participant, in order to protect them from the existential terror of the void. Also, Pluto has been declared imaginary."


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pjmoyermoderator
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Sep-12-13, 02:17 AM (EDT)
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20. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #19
 
   >I should say... hmm. What led me to the conclusions I did was... well,
>when I think 'Master Lotus' I think 'Piandao, Bumi, Jeong Jeong, and
>Pakku.' To a lesser extent I also think 'Sokka' as it seemed like they
>were grooming him for membership. While they all have different
>strengths, these guys were all very smart and cultured and above all
>competent in their manifold areas of expertise.
>
>This didn't mean they were necessarily always going to make good
>decisions. Jeong Jeong's view of his own element is indicative of some
>deep-seated self-loathing and war guilt. Pakku was kind of a
>misogynist. But while they weren't always wise, they were always at
>least -smart-.

Also, keep in mind that it's been over 170 years since the Order of the White Lotus has been a secret society of ancient masters who were dedicated to "philosophy, beauty, and truth". There's been a significant amount of dilution in the ranks and modification of the mission statement, and while membership numbers have substantially increased, the majority of that weight is in the support structure, the OWL Guards, etc. that help Korra run her life. The Masters Lotuses, while still held to a high standard, probably aren't as rigorously screened as they were in the old days, and it's definitely less secretive. (For instance, Azana's grandfather Ito would probably be a candidate if he ever showed any interest.) Jinora, the current Grand Lotus, is probably at the level of what you're thinking for "Aang-era Master Lotus" these days.

However, Korra has very little use for sycophants in the OWL, and prefers the capability for independent thought, action, and intellect for the higher levels of the Order... which means, of course, the possibility that they won't agree with her, have other ideas on how to handle things, and act on those ideas without necessarily telling her.

(But really, would it kill them to keep her in the loop? It's not like they don't have her cellphone's direct number...)

--- Philip
(Also, you forgot Uncle Iroh. For shame. shaaaaaaaaaame.)





Philip J. Moyer
Contributing Writer, Editor and Artist (and Moderator) -- Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
CEO of MTS, High Poobah Of Artwork, and High Priest Of the Church Of Aerianne -- Magnetic Terrapin Studios
"Insert Pithy Comment Here"


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Mercutio
Member since May-25-13
223 posts
Sep-12-13, 03:32 AM (EDT)
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21. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #20
 
   LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-13 AT 10:47 AM (EDT) by pjmoyer (moderator)
 
Uncle Iroh was the Grand Lotus. I feel comfortable expecting current Master Lotuses to live up to the standard of Pakku and Piandao; expecting everyone to rise to Iroh's level is maybe a bit much. :)

-Merc
Keep Rat

"The moon's weird though, right? It's there, and there, and then suddenly it's not. And it seems to be pretty far up. It is watching us? If not, what is it watching instead? Is there something more interesting than us? Hey, watch us moon!"


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The Traitor
Member since Feb-24-09
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Sep-12-13, 05:54 AM (EDT)
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22. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #19
 
   >>Well, for what it's worth, Corwin and Utena are probably not having
>>children of their own. Utena wasn't interested before she saw
>>what Anthy went through just now, and now, having seen it? NFW, Jack.
>> You want more than the one child, if Anthy's not on board, you just
>>go 'head and put an ad in the paper, son. I'm sure it won't take you
>>long to round up some volunteers. :)
>
>Well, to be all practical about it, it's the 25th century. If the
>Trinity find child-rearing rewarding enough to want to fill out the
>remaining two slots in their genetic possibility space, they can just
>gestate the kid in a tube. Hell, I'm willing to bet that's civilian
>technology, regularly used by women who either have health risks with
>a traditional pregnancy or just do NOT want to deal with our
>incredibly inefficient and high-risk gestation process.
>
>I mean, look at Mileva. Her mom grew her in an outlaw lab using
>genetic materiel (not even REPRODUCTIVE materiel, even) procured under
>completely unsanitary circumstances. And she is just adorable! Any
>parent would be glad to have a kid like that. :)

Point of order: ISTR that Anthy REALLY didn't get on board with idea of dear Annabelle's birth mother being, technically speaking, a smallish vat of bubbling pink stuff. In fact, I think that was kinda why they got Corwin involved in the first place.

---
"Yeah, I'm definitely going to hell/But I'll have all the best stories to tell" -- Frank Turner, The Ballad of Me and My Friends

I am unbelievably tempted to put a quote from the Desert Bluffs episode here...


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Gryphonadmin
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Sep-12-13, 01:33 PM (EDT)
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24. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #22
 
   LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-13 AT 01:33 PM (EDT)
 
>Point of order: ISTR that Anthy REALLY didn't get on board with idea
>of dear Annabelle's birth mother being, technically speaking, a
>smallish vat of bubbling pink stuff. In fact, I think that was kinda
>why they got Corwin involved in the first place.

I have had it put to me that much of the bonding required for successful parenting comes from the facts that

a) pregnancy and childbirth are perilous and difficult and Not Big On Dignity, and

b) the best-case outcome is that the offspring emerge and instantly set about being a colossal time-and-effort sink for an uninterrupted span of time roughly equaling the remainders of their parents' natural lives.

I may sound skeptical there, but you shouldn't read it that way. I am, in fact, perfectly willing to believe that the reality genuinely is that perverse. :)

Plainly this is a mystery of the universe which I am not qualified to explore, and as such, I am committing a flagrant foul vs. the literary law that one should write what one knows by treating with it at all. But then, whoever said one should write what one knows was plainly not a science-fiction writer anyway. For instance, I hesitate to believe that Ray Bradbury actually participated in the colonization of Mars.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Mercutio
Member since May-25-13
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Sep-12-13, 03:34 PM (EDT)
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28. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #24
 
  
>I have had it put to me that much of the bonding required for
>successful parenting comes from the facts that
>
>a) pregnancy and childbirth are perilous and difficult and Not Big On
>Dignity, and

Yeah, I've heard that one too. I try not to be too judgey about it, but generally speaking I file it in the same place I put the view that in order to be a good doctor, you have to first endanger patients by treating them after staying up for 36 hours straight, and that brutal, ritualized hazing rituals are necessary parts of training people to be good soldiers.

>Plainly this is a mystery of the universe which I am not qualified to
>explore, and as such, I am committing a flagrant foul vs. the literary
>law that one should write what one knows by treating with it at all.
>But then, whoever said one should write what one knows was plainly not
>a science-fiction writer anyway. For instance, I hesitate to believe
>that Ray Bradbury actually participated in the colonization of Mars.

Well, you're one step up on a lot of guys.

I recall a possibly apocryphal story about Robert Heinlein, regarding depiction of pregnancy and childbirth in his work and the accuracy thereof. He would reply to people questioning him on this that he'd "done his research" and consulted the finest doctors, hospital staff, psychiatrists, etc. to get a good view of how such things would go.

One day someone asked him "Did you consult any women who've been through the process? Y'know, the ones with actual firsthand experience?"

The answer, of course, was no.

-Merc
Keep Rat

"Give us a call! We don’t have a number; just whisper, “Forsaken Algonquinia” into your phone receiver, and angels, or Facebook, or something, will deliver an appropriate contribution from your bank account."


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Peter Eng
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Sep-12-13, 11:02 PM (EDT)
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34. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #24
 
   >
>Plainly this is a mystery of the universe which I am not qualified to
>explore, and as such, I am committing a flagrant foul vs. the literary
>law that one should write what one knows by treating with it at all.
>

One author I know has a few comments on the "write what you know" rule that lead me to think the proper phrasing is, "know what you can about what you write."

When she needs to know about something, she does research. Sometimes, it's a bit more direct - she learned to fire a pistol because it was relevant to her books - but sometimes, she just asks people.

From what you've said so far, I'm inclined to think you're doing fine in that regard.

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


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BobSchroeck
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Sep-13-13, 08:55 AM (EDT)
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37. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #24
 
   >Plainly this is a mystery of the universe which I am not qualified to
>explore, and as such, I am committing a flagrant foul vs. the literary
>law that one should write what one knows by treating with it at all.
>But then, whoever said one should write what one knows was plainly not
>a science-fiction writer anyway. For instance, I hesitate to believe
>that Ray Bradbury actually participated in the colonization of Mars.

As a nominal pro with a SFWA membership, royalties, and everything, it is my studied and professional opinion that "write what you know" is complete and utter bullshit. It is advice for the imagination- and determination-deprived, to give them an excuse not to explore more of the world than they are already familiar and comfortable with. It is responsible, as someone I once read long ago very accurately said, for an entirely too-large number of works about middle-aged English professors contemplating adultery, and little more.

"Start with what you know" might be better advice, but it's still unnecessarily limiting.

-- Bob
-------------------
My race is pacifist and does not believe in war. We kill only out of personal spite.


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Offsides
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Sep-13-13, 11:35 AM (EDT)
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38. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #24
 
   >I have had it put to me that much of the bonding required for
>successful parenting comes from the facts that
>
>a) pregnancy and childbirth are perilous and difficult and Not Big On
>Dignity, and
>
>b) the best-case outcome is that the offspring emerge and
>instantly set about being a colossal time-and-effort sink for
>an uninterrupted span of time roughly equaling the remainders of their
>parents' natural lives.
>
>I may sound skeptical there, but you shouldn't read it that way. I
>am, in fact, perfectly willing to believe that the reality genuinely
>is that perverse. :)

I wouldn't go so far as to say that a) is a requirement so much as to say that going through the experience for many people results in that bond. b) is a simple point of reality when it comes to being a parent, but I suspect it too encourages the bond because when you put that much effort into something, you generally don't want to just walk away from it when things go wrong (and they will!)...

And from personal experience, no matter how much you hear about what parenting is like, it is at the same time both better and worse, easier and harder, simpler and more complicated, "normal" and weird, and rewarding and frustrating than anything anyone ever tells you. Often all at the same time...

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>


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JeanneHedge
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Sep-13-13, 11:54 AM (EDT)
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39. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #38
 
   >And from personal experience, no matter how much you hear about what
>parenting is like, it is at the same time both better and worse,
>easier and harder, simpler and more complicated, "normal" and weird,
>and rewarding and frustrating than anything anyone ever tells you.
>Often all at the same time...
>
>Offsides

As for parents dealing with kids, what's the old saying - something about it being amazing how much smarter a parent becomes to their kids once the kids hit the 23-25 year old age range.


Jeanne


Jeanne Hedge
http://www.jhedge.com
"Never give up, never surrender!"


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Peter Eng
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Sep-13-13, 07:53 PM (EDT)
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41. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #39
 
   >
>As for parents dealing with kids, what's the old saying - something
>about it being amazing how much smarter a parent becomes to their kids
>once the kids hit the 23-25 year old age range.
>
>
>Jeanne
>

Based on recent studies, I suspect that part of this is actually due to processing power being freed up from the "save my kid from the latest screw-up" subroutine.

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


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The Traitor
Member since Feb-24-09
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Sep-13-13, 08:13 PM (EDT)
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42. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #39
 
   "When I was fourteen, my father was the dumbest man in the world. When I was twenty-one, he was the wisest. It amazes me how much he learned in seven years" -- Mark Twain.

---
"Yeah, I'm definitely going to hell/But I'll have all the best stories to tell" -- Frank Turner, The Ballad of Me and My Friends


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Mercutio
Member since May-25-13
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Sep-12-13, 03:22 PM (EDT)
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26. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #22
 
  
>Point of order: ISTR that Anthy REALLY didn't get on board with idea
>of dear Annabelle's birth mother being, technically speaking, a
>smallish vat of bubbling pink stuff. In fact, I think that was kinda
>why they got Corwin involved in the first place.

Hmm, well, it depends on how ovafusion works, doesn't it? I got the impression from that sequence that the established procedure is to combine two women's reproductive materiel to get an embryo, which you might choose to grow in a tank, but could also choose to implant in either of the parents or, hell, an entirely third party. I also got the impression her objection was more along the lines of "creating a person who doesn't have one parent that is a genetic male is a crime against nature."

Anthy's objection to this was couched in reactionary grounds and has never, in my opinion, reflected well on her. The choice of words was "unnatural", which is technically true but somewhat meaningless; the lives of everyone in the civilized galaxy are lived in an unnatural state, and Anthy is studying to be a doctor, I think, a job that requires a constant, upraised middle finger to the natural world.

While it's perfectly possible Anthy just holds a surprisingly retrograde view (you meet the occasional people who are otherwise blazingly intelligent but passionately believe that in all kinds of quackery) I personally have the sneaking suspicion that she was trying to draw Corwin more deeply into their orbit and her "ask" was a bit of a cover for that.

Given that, despite it all working out, it WAS a pretty big ask, I think if Utena and Corwin ever decided that they -really want- a little pink-haired ball of terror running around, Anthy would likely concede that, since it isn't her body or genetic code involved, she could be flexible on the tank thing. But that's just me.

-Merc
Keep Rat

"A million dollars isn’t cool. You know what’s cool? A basilisk."


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Gryphonadmin
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Sep-12-13, 04:09 PM (EDT)
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29. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #26
 
   >I also got
>the impression her objection was more along the lines of "creating a
>person who doesn't have one parent that is a genetic male is a crime
>against nature."

Not... quite, no. That phrasing implies a measure of judgmentality that's lacking. She didn't want her child to have been constructed in a laboratory and then, erm, installed in a clinical procedure. She's not against such things being done by and for other people, and she doesn't regard the resultant children as aberrant in some way. She just declined to have that action all scienced up on herself. This is an important distinction that I'm vaguely surprised you, of all people, wouldn't have picked up on, particularly since you called it out yourself later in this very post...

>I personally have the sneaking suspicion that she was trying
>to draw Corwin more deeply into their orbit and her "ask" was a bit of
>a cover for that.

Uh... yeah. I thought it was interesting earlier that you not only postulated this creepy-as-fuck theory, you interpreted it as evidence that Anthy is "awesome". And not, you know... jaw-droppingly cynical and manipulative. Or maybe that does constitute feminine awesomeness for you, in which case, get help.

>Anthy would likely
>concede that, since it isn't her body or genetic code involved, she
>could be flexible on the tank thing.

Concession would not be required; that implies that she'd have to change her mind about it.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Mercutio
Member since May-25-13
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Sep-12-13, 04:51 PM (EDT)
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30. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #29
 
  
>Not... quite, no. That phrasing implies a measure of judgmentality
>that's lacking. She didn't want her child to have been
>constructed in a laboratory and then, erm, installed in a
>clinical procedure. She's not against such things being done by and
>for other people, and she doesn't regard the resultant children as
>aberrant in some way. She just declined to have that action all
>scienced up on herself.

Fair enough, and that is an important distinction.

It was her choice of words that led me to lean to the less-charitable interpretation; her body language and terminology during that particular exchange seemed to convey not "Anthy doesn't think this is right for her and her family unit" but rather "Anthy doesn't think this is right, period." That could be a failure on my part as a reader, of course, but her word choice was... strong.

>>I personally have the sneaking suspicion that she was trying
>>to draw Corwin more deeply into their orbit and her "ask" was a bit of
>>a cover for that.
>
>Uh... yeah. I thought it was interesting earlier that you not only
>postulated this creepy-as-fuck theory, you interpreted it as evidence
>that Anthy is "awesome". And not, you know... jaw-droppingly cynical
>and manipulative.

Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

This is on me a bit for maybe not communicating clearly. There's "awesome as a person" and "awesome as a character" and those two sets don't have a complete overlap. For that matter, "awesome" doesn't necessarily mean the same as "without flaw."

Let's go to the source materiel here. I love me some Azula, and some Long Feng. They're both pretty goddamn awesome, in my book. They're both evil, sure, and they're not good people, but they do awesome stuff and are generally cool as hell. I wouldn't want to spend time with either of them without having some fairly impressive guarantees of personal safety, mind you, but...

As a moral judgment of the character, Anthy resorting to cynical and manipulative tricks in order to end up with the happy family unit she's always dreamed of would be not cool. As would a moral judgment of a narrative that presented such things in an approving way, as opposed to a neutral or negative way. When Azula does stuff that's evil, the narrative of ATLA made it pretty clear that even though her takedown of Ba Sing Ce was a thing of sublime beauty, it was still Not Cool and she was Doing Wrong in her sociopathic quest for power.

But as an aesthetic judgment of the character, it would kind of be pretty awesome, I think. Much as Azula playing her brother like a fiddle for two seasons was pretty neat, Anthy having a dark side that very occasionally tells her "fuck it, this relationship tap-dancing is bullshit, and Utena and Corwin want it anyway, so you're going to give things a hell of a push" would be okay, I think. Plenty of UF protagonists wander off into moral grey (and black) areas from time to time; I mean, hell, look at Darth Vader.

>Or maybe that does constitute feminine
>awesomeness for you, in which case, get help.

Well, there would be different freight involved in this if Anthy were a man, certainly, and I'm the first one to concede that there's an unhelpful literary stereotype of "powerful women get that way by using deceitful and underhanded methods to manipulate their noble honest male counterparts." (I'm looking at you, Thomas Malory.) And Anthy as a character and a person has a lot of baggage from the whole weird "witch" thing that was going on during SkU.

But in general, this doesn't have much to do with Anthy being feminine or unfeminine at all. I kind of reject the traditional weight associated with the terms masculine and feminine, really; I often tell people that anything I do is masculine as all hell, because I -am- a man and thus anything I do is appropriate for a man to be doing.

This argument has flaws in it but it works great to get my brother to shut the hell up about how I like to watch children's cartoons and have a collection of pony dolls.

-Merc
Keep Rat

"Those were not contact lenses you put in this morning. Best not think about this again."


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jonathanlennox
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Sep-12-13, 03:26 PM (EDT)
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27. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #19
 
   >Ever since we started passing the 10th/20th anniversaries of various
>seminal works, I've been wishing a bit that their timestamps had
>month/day rather than just year. (I've been toying with doing, like, a
>book club thing. 'This month, in 1994, two important Golden Age
>stories came out. Let's go for a trip down memory lane...')

Ah! This, then, would be my periodic occasion to plug my What Previously Was New at Eyrie Productions page, which compiles the contents of the EPU "What's New" page back to its inauguration in its current format in August 1999.

For the twenty-years-back list, also see my List of Eyrie Production Stories by Publication Order, linked from that page; that compiles the dates various EPU stories were published, mostly based on the dates of their appearance in the Google Groups archive.

September 1993 brought us Phoenix. September 2003 had no new prose, but it had Dave Menard's first EPU art as staff; and October brought Five Bagatelles in Various Keys.


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JeanneHedge
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Sep-12-13, 07:00 PM (EDT)
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32. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #27
 
   LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-13 AT 07:02 PM (EDT)
 
>Ah! This, then, would be my periodic occasion to plug my
>What Previously
>Was New at Eyrie Productions page, which compiles the contents of the
>EPU "What's New" page back to its inauguration in its current format
>in August 1999.
>
>For the twenty-years-back list, also see my
>List of Eyrie
>Production Stories by Publication Order, linked from that page; that
>compiles the dates various EPU stories were published, mostly based on
>the dates of their appearance in the Google Groups archive.
>
>September 1993 brought us
>Phoenix. September
>2003 had no new prose, but it had Dave Menard's first EPU art as
>staff; and October brought
>Five Bagatelles in
>Various Keys

You could also look in this board's archives to see what dates people first starting talking about the latest release. (tho IIRC the archives have blown up a time or two and things may be missing)

(sorry for the bad formatting on the quote-back. I had to get rid of the links, b/c they were turning the entire post into a link)


Jeanne


Jeanne Hedge
http://www.jhedge.com
"Never give up, never surrender!"


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Mercutio
Member since May-25-13
223 posts
Sep-12-13, 07:18 PM (EDT)
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33. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #27
 
   ... you, sir, are my new personal hero. I've bookmarked the hell out of both these things.

If these aren't linked somewhere else on the site and I'm just too silly to have found them, they -should- be, because they're great.

I'm recalling all sorts of stuff I'd forgotten just looking at it. "Oh yeah, the postings gradually did migrate from RAA to RAAS to RAAC, didn't they? I barely remember a time before RAAC. Hey, and there's the summer of 1997, when they dropped a brand new universe in the form of NXE on us and we got all excited."

Far and away my favorite part of the chronology is the sourcing on Hammer Time Book I. 'Date Source: Date on Philip Moyer's personal printout.' That's some good research there.

-Merc
Keep Rat

"We have big dreams—sometimes scary, unforgettable dreams that repeat on the same date every year and are shared by every person in town—but we make those big dreams come true."


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jonathanlennox
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Sep-16-13, 05:25 PM (EDT)
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54. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #33
 
   I initially created these lists sometime in 2001 -- I had just rediscovered UF when the Symphony got started, and since I was busy not writing my Ph.D. thesis, I decided to re-read all of UF to date.

I've always been very much a publication-order re-reader, whereas Gryphon seems to be of the internal-chronology camp for his webpages. (A longstanding flamewar, across all of fiction...) So I figured I'd better reconstruct the list in the order I wanted it.

I was hanging out with Phil on a chatroom in those days, so I asked him to help fill in some of the gaps I couldn't find online.

(Further discussion, if any, should go to EPU general, I suppose.)


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Gryphonadmin
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Sep-12-13, 05:36 PM (EDT)
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31. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #19
 
   >>>But a massive conspiracy?
>>
>>Nine people is your idea of massive? Hm.
>
>Well, I had been assuming they weren't in it alone.

Underlings aren't conspirators, they're the help. The lower-ranked White Lotus members who participated in the scheme may not even have known exactly what the project was they were working on, much less have been voting members of the steering committee.

>>>I mean, lets unpack this.
>>
>>Never say that again.
>
>Er... all right? I find it a handy phrase

I had a professor last semester who loooooved to try and drive the discussion by requesting that we Unpack That. I hated that course anyway, because it was a political science class hiding behind an HTY catalog code* and if I had known that before the add/drop deadline I would've been halfway to the county line by lunchtime, and that little quirk on Prof. S's part made me want to punch someone (not necessarily him, he was an elderly gent and I don't make a habit of beating up distinguished scholars, even if they are driving me up the friggin' wall) every time he said it.

>>Heh, "ended".
>
>... there's more? It -seemed- like a done deal.

"Certain members of the White Lotus overstepping their shit" is a done deal, yes. The problems that originally started them down that path, though, remain.

>The 66th Einherjar went en-masse to Midgard for Operation TRIDENT
>without formally exercising their right, did they not? I mean, they
>went BACK to Valhalla after it was done, yes?

Yes, but they did all have it; they just weren't required to cash the chit, full-time, no backsies, to work Corwin's wedding. (Operation TRIDENT was a slightly unexpected wrinkle.)

Also, it wasn't the whole 66th, only the scout/special ops century.

>There's also the fact that if you're tight with a god and haven't yet
>died, you can basically walk in and out of Asgard at will, not exactly
>a privilege available to the general public.

No indeed, and that last bit puts the lie to the "revolving door" analogy right there.

>I'm pretty sure Corwin has gotten more girls than the old man had when
>he was at a similar age. There was Kei, and then there was nobody else, for a long time. (If she were still available for comment, Kei would probably take credit for that. :)

Chronologically, to be sure. Gryphon got off to a mightily slow start in that regard. Corwin, meanwhile, has had a strange old time of it these last few years. He's had a Serious Non-Relationship (Utena, since roughly Day 2); a partially concurrent Serious (for high school grades of Serious) Relationship that somewhat unexpectedly came to a dead end (Kozue); and then, in just the last few months, a curious flurry of strange encounters culminating in the sudden conversion of his original Serious Non-Relationship into a Really, Really Serious Relationship.

The next-to-last bit, in particular, has involved the kind of what-just-happened moments which lead him to wonder if someone in the Celestial NOC has accidentally reloaded his fateline from someone else's backup tapes. If anyone had asked him last June, he would've said he didn't think the one-night stand was particularly his thing, and here he's had at least two in the last year.

>Gryphon was probably still ahead in "baddies killed" at the same age,
>though; fleet actions will do.

Well, not quite, I mean, when Gryphon was exactly the age Corwin is "now" - the second half of his 19th year - he was only in training for the WDF. He hadn't actually started killing baddies for a living yet.

Within a couple of years, it wouldn't be a fair comparison, since for much of his first three centuries, killing baddies was Gryphon's job.

>Not sure about the scorecard on planets saved.

Corwin has technically saved an entire cosmos, which, even though it's a small one, rather puts him permanently ahead in that category.

>I mean, look at Mileva. Her mom grew her in an outlaw lab using
>genetic materiel (not even REPRODUCTIVE materiel, even) procured under
>completely unsanitary circumstances. And she is just adorable! Any
>parent would be glad to have a kid like that. :)
>
>>>Finally... hmm. Not sure how to couch this. Have you guys given any
>>>thought to possibly re-naming Symphony 5? Admittedly, I do not know
>>>your plans for future parts of it
>>
>>Indeed you don't.
>
>Yeah, I had the feeling that everything I said there was gonna be
>non-applicable, but it seemed worth at least pointing out.

Actually, that bit deserves (and probably will get) a more detailed answer, but it was like Wrex answering Shepard's email. I just couldn't not do it that way first. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Peter Eng
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910 posts
Sep-12-13, 11:13 PM (EDT)
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35. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #31
 
   > The next-to-last bit, in particular, has involved the kind of
> what-just-happened moments which lead him to wonder if someone
> in the Celestial NOC has accidentally reloaded his fateline
> from someone else's backup tapes.

At least he isn't assuming that it's all Utena's doing, even if it's likely that it is.

Peter Eng
---
Inthert pithy thaying here.


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Bushido
Member since Apr-8-10
221 posts
Sep-12-13, 02:04 PM (EDT)
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25. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #11
 
   >It's not like he's one of these kids going around with the Japanese character for
>fuckwit tattooed on their necks, thinking it says beauty because that's what the
>needleslinger told them.

I have a favorite shirt that codifies that sentiment quite nicely. http://www.amazon.com/ThinkGeek-Random-Japanese-Characters-T-shirt/dp/B006CPQ66O/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt (which has apparently been discontinued now that I look for it)

--------
Wedge Defense Force General Order 12: "Try to avoid freaking the mundanes."


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twipper
Member since Jan-8-03
181 posts
Sep-11-13, 04:58 PM (EDT)
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15. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #0
 
   This piece reminds me how well the writers here deal with the day in the life of. The story felt like S1M1, with Kate looking out the window and seeing a pink-haired boy walking across the quad, and then everything changed with a knock on the door. And this, for me, was good.

Well done. Well done indeed.

Oh, and:

Go Rory. Nice way to step out. :)

And last:

Bad egg, giving Mrs. Williams nothing to do. Bad.


Brian


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BZArcher
Member since Nov-8-05
575 posts
Sep-11-13, 06:20 PM (EDT)
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16. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #15
 
   Note that Mrs. Williams is / was on Dragonet duty. I expect we'll see her contributions shortly.

---------------------------
We will BUILD heroes!


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Offsides
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Sep-12-13, 12:39 PM (EDT)
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23. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #0
 
   Fun, fun, fun! Looking forward to the conclusion, whenever it makes its appearance.

Also, while the details were obviously glossed over, you did a great job with the birth scene, especially some of the emotional roller coaster being an expectant father is. I've always been amazed at how well you write the most emotional scenes in your work, being powerful and sincere without (usually) being over the top. And having been there myself, I teared up at the bit about "HIS DAUGHTER" - it was dead on.

Welcome little Annabelle, don't mind the chaos. You'll get used to it (or have an aneurysm :))

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>


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BeardedFerret
Member since Apr-21-08
374 posts
Sep-13-13, 06:25 AM (EDT)
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36. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #0
 
   I really liked this piece. I think due to the change of setting and the introduction of so many new characters (none of whom I'm familiar with) made the previous one feel a bit off, but the moment you brought in Zach and Celestial Pizza, I felt like it found its roots again. I don't mean this as a slight against the last movement, but for me SotS has always felt better focusing more on the smaller stuff that S1 and early S2 introduced, rather than going new-character-heavy.


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JeanneHedge
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Sep-13-13, 12:06 PM (EDT)
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40. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #0
 
   3 moments really stood out for me in this part of the story.

I found it very interesting that Nall is apparently not so sure about the entire thing of a dragon being raised alongside a member of Corwin's family. We don't know how much of his upbringing was draconic and how much was with Man, so we don't know how much he missed out on growing up that would be normal for a dragon (or what it would be). Anyway, I got the impression that Nall's not entirely sure of himself at this point, though, and he's still trying to process the thing with his cousin. Be interesting to see what he decides to do from here - continue as he has, perhaps (or not) make up with Umi? Will he take some role in the life of the still-unhatched dragonette? Will he take some time for himself? Does he need to go balance his rearing with Man with the draconic side of his nature?


My 2 favorite moments in the entire story are also the ones that strike me as the most true to real life. Chronologically,

#1 - Korra telling Corwin not to look when Anthy actually starts to deliver (yes, I know, it's still cliched, but it's also true)

#2 - Utena's reaction as she stood there, just watching Anthy, Corwin and the baby. Her universe just shook and changed in a way it's never done before, nothing will ever be the same again, and it would be so easy for Utena to be put to a very much diminished role in their lives<1> from then on. She needed a great big hug and a reminder that that last was just not going to happen.

<1> Of course, everyone goes into a diminished role when a baby comes onto the scene. The little buggers just love being the star of the show! (or so my boss said after 6 months of no-sleep <g>)

Jeanne


Jeanne Hedge
http://www.jhedge.com
"Never give up, never surrender!"


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DaemeonX
Member since Aug-3-08
48 posts
Sep-13-13, 11:31 PM (EDT)
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43. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #40
 
   >3 moments really stood out for me in this part of the story.
>
>I found it very interesting that Nall is apparently not so sure about
>the entire thing of a dragon being raised alongside a member of
>Corwin's family. We don't know how much of his upbringing was draconic
>and how much was with Man, so we don't know how much he missed out on
>growing up that would be normal for a dragon (or what it would be).
>Anyway, I got the impression that Nall's not entirely sure of himself
>at this point, though, and he's still trying to process the thing with
>his cousin. Be interesting to see what he decides to do from here -
>continue as he has, perhaps (or not) make up with Umi? Will he take
>some role in the life of the still-unhatched dragonette? Will he take
>some time for himself? Does he need to go balance his rearing with Man
>with the draconic side of his nature?

I found this interesting as well on multiple parts, but what I'm most interested in now is -Why is there not a dragonette in the mix - I'm sure that we will find out what happens at a later date, but I find myself spinning that little tidbit in my head with the whys and the whos and the hows.


>#1 - Korra telling Corwin not to look when Anthy actually starts to
>deliver (yes, I know, it's still cliched, but it's also true)


Being a father of two I can tell you that this is not a good thing for the father to see. For my daughter's birth they let me see everything. This lead to what I like to call "shutting off the old boob tube vision" in which your sight goes down to pin holes in the middle of your vision and breathing isn't an option anymore. I narrowly avoided fainting into the doctor after I saw what was going on down there!

DaemeonX

"Never memorize anything that you can look up."

~Albert Einstein


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Offsides
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Sep-15-13, 01:58 AM (EDT)
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49. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #43
 
   >>#1 - Korra telling Corwin not to look when Anthy actually starts to
>>deliver (yes, I know, it's still cliched, but it's also true)
>
>
>Being a father of two I can tell you that this is not a good thing for
>the father to see. For my daughter's birth they let me see everything.
>This lead to what I like to call "shutting off the old boob tube
>vision" in which your sight goes down to pin holes in the middle of
>your vision and breathing isn't an option anymore. I narrowly avoided
>fainting into the doctor after I saw what was going on down there!

I saw it happen both times, and it's a damn good thing I saw it the second time since I was the only one there to catch the baby! But yes, I also believe that there are many men who wouldn't be able to deal with it without having problems, and given Corwin's position, he had more important things to do than lose it :)

I had no issues with the scene as it was written, even if I don't agree with the extrapolated generalizations 100%. The actions fit the scene and felt right in context, and that's really all that matters...

Offsides

(I normally can't cope with blood and other "medical" stuff, but for some reason the births of my children didn't bother me in the slightest. Go fig...)

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>


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junipermoderator
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Sep-15-13, 02:32 PM (EDT)
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50. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #49
 
   >I saw it happen both times, and it's a damn good thing I saw it the
>second time since I was the only one there to catch the baby! But
>yes, I also believe that there are many men who wouldn't be able to
>deal with it without having problems, and given Corwin's position, he
>had more important things to do than lose it :)

Congrats on your catch, and good on you for not panicking!

I strongly suspect that had Corwin been the only one there to help Anthy - not that that was ever a likely scernario, but in the hypothetical - he would have held things together until things were all settled too. And *then* he might have gone off to one side and had a brief bout of hyperventilation. Fortunately, we'll never have to know.

>I had no issues with the scene as it was written, even if I don't
>agree with the extrapolated generalizations 100%. The actions fit the
>scene and felt right in context, and that's really all that matters...

Thank you - that's always a nice thing to hear about a scene that's as potentially touchy/graphic as this one was. Gryph worked really hard to make sure we didn't put in too many messy details and got the scene just right.


Juniper
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JFerio
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51. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #50
 
   >I strongly suspect that had Corwin been the only one there to help
>Anthy - not that that was ever a likely scernario, but in the
>hypothetical - he would have held things together until things were
>all settled too. And *then* he might have gone off to one side and had
>a brief bout of hyperventilation. Fortunately, we'll never have to
>know.

He'd have it in common with Adam Savage, in that case. The mad mythbusting geek himself did relate a story where he cut himself up pretty badly doing some making at home, calmly started staunching the bleeding, and called a couple of friends to come over to be with the kids (single parent at the time) so he could go to the hospital. Once they were over, he had a moment of "why are you upside down" shortly after they had gone into the house... he'd gotten to where "oh, others are here to handle it" and fainted right then, and only noticed that he'd had a sudden change of viewpoint.





Jeffrey 'JFerio' Crouch
'It'll be all right... I think.' - Nene Romanova



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Gryphonadmin
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Sep-15-13, 11:14 PM (EDT)
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52. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #50
 
   >I strongly suspect that had Corwin been the only one there to help
>Anthy - not that that was ever a likely scernario, but in the
>hypothetical - he would have held things together until things were
>all settled too. And *then* he might have gone off to one side and had
>a brief bout of hyperventilation.

In that contingency, I see Corwin's comedown at the end more in the spirit Tony Stark's reaction to being informed that they'd won at the end of The Avengers. Lying on the floor cheering weakly, "Yaay, awright, good job, guys! Let's... just not come in tomorrow. You know? Let's just take a day."

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
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Offsides
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Sep-16-13, 00:21 AM (EDT)
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53. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #52
 
   >In that contingency, I see Corwin's comedown at the end more in the
>spirit Tony Stark's reaction to being informed that they'd won at the
>end of The Avengers. Lying on the floor cheering weakly,
>"Yaay, awright, good job, guys! Let's... just not come in tomorrow.
>You know? Let's just take a day."

Yeah, except that isn't an option when you're a parent, especially with a newborn. Not that I don't sympathize :)

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>


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junipermoderator
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Sep-14-13, 06:11 PM (EDT)
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44. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #40
 
   >#1 - Korra telling Corwin not to look when Anthy actually starts to
>deliver (yes, I know, it's still cliched, but it's also true)

I thought about this before we wrote that scene, and decided I was going to go with the cliche for a very simple reason. Corwin was holding Anthy up right then, and Korra didn't know if he would a) totally take it in stride and be fine or b) get wobbly. Since he was holding the mother up, it was important that if Corwin chose column b, he not look right then. ;)

Also, bending over to look, even if he *did* take it in stride would mean that he probably would let go of Anthy. Which would not be helpful.


Juniper
Rampaging Karateka Crypto-Kwavu'b Contributing Editor (and Moderator)
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JeanneHedge
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Sep-14-13, 06:43 PM (EDT)
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45. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #44
 
   >>#1 - Korra telling Corwin not to look when Anthy actually starts to
>>deliver (yes, I know, it's still cliched, but it's also true)
>
>I thought about this before we wrote that scene, and decided I was
>going to go with the cliche for a very simple reason. Corwin was
>holding Anthy up right then, and Korra didn't know if he would a)
>totally take it in stride and be fine or b) get wobbly. Since he was
>holding the mother up, it was important that if Corwin chose column b,
>he not look right then. ;)
>
>Also, bending over to look, even if he *did* take it in stride would
>mean that he probably would let go of Anthy. Which would not be
>helpful.

Just clarifying here, in case anyone's misunderstood me, I *liked* that line, and cliches are not always bad! There's just so many ways of writing a childbirth scene if you're taking your readers into the delivery room, especially if there's no massive drama going on (I'm looking at YOU, Farscape: Peacekeeper Wars!).

Don't ask me to explain why I liked it so much, because I can't explain. It all just worked for me, and the line itself was rendered perfectly in context (especially considering what did happen when Corwin *did* look).

Maybe it's just that there was a "Maternity Consultant" on staff ;)


Jeanne


Jeanne Hedge
http://www.jhedge.com
"Never give up, never surrender!"


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Gryphonadmin
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Sep-14-13, 06:51 PM (EDT)
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46. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #45
 
   LAST EDITED ON Sep-14-13 AT 06:51 PM (EDT)
 
>Don't ask me to explain why I liked it so much, because I can't
>explain. It all just worked for me, and the line itself was rendered
>perfectly in context (especially considering what did happen when
>Corwin *did* look).

In Corwin's defense, nobody had warned him not to at that point.

(Also, for the record, when he was told not to look? He totally had no intention of looking anyway. :)

--G.
"Don't interfere with it!" "AbsoLUTEly I will not interfere!"
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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JeanneHedge
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Sep-14-13, 07:44 PM (EDT)
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47. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #46
 
   LAST EDITED ON Sep-14-13 AT 07:47 PM (EDT)
 
>>Don't ask me to explain why I liked it so much, because I can't
>>explain. It all just worked for me, and the line itself was rendered
>>perfectly in context (especially considering what did happen when
>>Corwin *did* look).
>
>In Corwin's defense, nobody had warned him not to at that
>point.

:)

>(Also, for the record, when he was told not to look?

starting at 4708

"All right, not long now," said Korra at length. "A couple more
like that one and we're in business."
Corwin shifted his embrace around Anthy a bit as she let out a
low groan and nearly doubled over into the water face first, her unheld
left hand slipping from the edge of the pool. She's wiped out, he
thought, leaning to kiss the corner of her jaw as Utena, by now looking
genuinely rattled, did the same to the knuckles of Anthy's right hand.
-I- should be wiped out, he added to himself, as his thighs gave a
twinge of protest, but only a twinge. I've been holding this stance for
-how- long now?
"That's it, we're almost there," Korra declared. "No, Corwin,
don't look. Just hold on another few seconds. Right. OK. Anthy, bear
down -hard-..."


And a minute or two later, he does look (4737)

>He
>totally had no intention of looking anyway. :)

Smart man

Jeanne


Jeanne Hedge
http://www.jhedge.com
"Never give up, never surrender!"


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Gryphonadmin
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Sep-14-13, 07:55 PM (EDT)
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48. "RE: S5M6 - What's Past is Prologue"
In response to message #47
 
   >>(Also, for the record, when he was told not to look?
>
>[4718] "That's it, we're almost there," Korra declared.

No no, that wasn't a request for a cite, it was a rhetorical prequestion. When I asked that? I was totally just laying the groundwork for the next bit. :)

>And a minute or two later, he does look (4737)

He thought the part he'd been told not to look at was over! Also, he wasn't specifically looking for that, Korra just upped and raised... items... into his line of sight. I'm totally not letting him take the blame for that part. Man's got to point his eyes in some direction. :)

My point remains: He totally wasn't planning to look at the part of the procedure Korra told him not to look at, anyway. I mean, he's not stupid, he knew what was about to happen.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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