29||0|2861|0|yes 0|0|0|||||Visibility.|wsr||09:52:22|06/01/2007|First%2C a tiny bit of introduction%2C then the griping %5E_%5E%0D%0A%0D%0AI got into _UF_ in high school%2C long ago when the internet was flat%2C %2793%2F%2794 or so. I still have a shell function in my bash aliases file%2C to call up www.eyrie.net%2Fnxe in lynx%2C even though I bailed on 3%3A3 for several years before I went back and finished it.%0D%0A%0D%0AI indentured myself to the army instead of finishing off college%2C and am back in Iraq for a second deployment right now.%0D%0A%0D%0A_The Iron Age_ drew me back in about three weeks ago%2C and led me to start reading _Symphony of the Sword_. Once I started _SotS_ it sucked down all my non-working awake time until a couple days ago%2C when I finished it%2C and this is adapted from my whinging on livejournal %5E_%5E%0D%0A%0D%0AAs I read%2C a couple things stood out%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AIn _SotS_ I didn%27t see a single gay couple. Juri notes the f%2Ff couple when she%27s first out with Kaitlyn%2C and that%27s about it for on-screen relationships that don%27t involve named characters.%0D%0A%0D%0AThere are no gay boys%2C no f%2Fm%2Fm groups%2C and no explanation why%2C despite verbose prose and a very detailed background. Five to ten percent of the population just _vanished_ without even an a claim by one of the characters that %60they%27re boring%2C so I ignore them%27 or somesuch.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn contrast%2C there are _three_ f%2Ff%2Fm triads%2C and%2C historically in _UF_%2C we have Asrial%27s harem as well%2C even though we don%27t see most of them in _SotS_ . . . %0D%0A%0D%0AThis falls on top of what irritated me all out of proportion to it%27s actual significance%3A All three of the triads formed during _SotS_ were an established f%2Ff pairing which brought in a male. Amanda%2FRina%2FDevlin works in large part because we%2C as the audience%2C met them all about the same time%2C and two of them are aliens%2C so . . .%0D%0A%0D%0AUtena and Corwin had a _long_ time put into developing their relationship%2C and folding Anthy into it%2C so%2C while it _annoys_ me to see anyone else in with Utena and Anthy%2C it%27d annoy me if Corwin was female%2C too%2C so . . . %0D%0A%0D%0AKaitlyn and Juri and Miki . . . umm. In their own story%2C with their own build up%2C without the other two triads already in this story . . . But they%27re not. Storywise%2C it%27s real sudden%2C but at least they seem happy with themselves and each other.%0D%0A%0D%0ARather more annoying is the way Anthy and Utena seem to have fallen straight into Lesbian Bed Death. They are married on the same day Anthy is rescued from Cephiro%2C sent off for only a three day honeymoon%2C and then we have no more on screen physical affection between them than they share with any of the other females.%0D%0A%0D%0AI mean%2C it%27s not like I%27m going to stop reading%2C but it%27s _annoying_.%0D%0A 1|1|0|||||RE%3A Visibility.|Meagen||11:30:42|06/01/2007|Dunno about the rest%2C but I%27ll field this one.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3ERather more annoying is the way Anthy and Utena seem to have fallen %0D%0A%3Estraight into Lesbian Bed Death. They are married on the same day %0D%0A%3EAnthy is rescued from Cephiro%2C sent off for only a three day %0D%0A%3Ehoneymoon%2C and then we have no more on screen physical affection %0D%0A%3Ebetween them than they share with any of the other females. %0D%0A%0D%0AEh%2C I don%27t really need any explicit lesbian scenes in my space opera. It%27s pretty clear that they have been enjoying their marriage. In %5Bi%5DPage of Swords%5B%2Fi%5D%2C set three years after their honeymoon%2C Juniper is cautioned to knock first when looking for the Tenjous in their bedroom. Small details like that. 4|2|1|||||RE%3A Visibility.|wsr||12:40:14|06/01/2007|%3EEh%2C I don%27t really need any explicit lesbian scenes in my space opera. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt doesn%27t need to be explicit to show that there%27s an actual%2C physical attraction.%0D%0A%0D%0ABoth of them are repeatedly described as mostly straight%2C so if that physical attraction is there%2C it needs to be shown%2C or it will be assumed _not_ to be.%0D%0A%0D%0AFor example%2C in the scene at the end of %5Bi%5DPer Ardua%5B%2Fi%5D Utena describes Anthy as %60adorable%27%2C and they cuddle and fall asleep. There are several very similar scenes%2C with one or both of them coming in.%0D%0A%0D%0AThey don%27t seem to really look at each other%2C to notice each other physically. There are no admiring glances%2C no momentary contemplation of the lay of a hand or the curve of a jaw%2C no indicators of attraction.%0D%0A%0D%0AThey don%27t seem at all frustrated when circumstances step on them%2C not even a single %60I wish we weren%27t so tired%27 when snuggling against a sleepy spouse.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EIt%27s pretty clear that they have been enjoying their marriage.%0D%0A%0D%0ATheir interactions read %60good friend%27 more than %60lovers%2C%27 contrasting the deep UST of the TV series and movie.%0D%0A%0D%0AThey read as that stereotypical couple%2C married for fifty years%2C who still love each other but are too tired to do anything about it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EIn %5Bi%5DPage of Swords%5B%2Fi%5D%2C set three years after their honeymoon%2C Juniper %0D%0A%3Eis cautioned to knock first when looking for the Tenjous in their %0D%0A%3Ebedroom. Small details like that. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5BI%5DPage of Swords%5B%2FI%5D is the first place _since_ their honeymoon where they show anything more than affection and loyalty.%0D%0A%0D%0AThere%27s nothing wrong with affection and loyalty%2C but I want to read them as capital-H Happy%2C not just kinda content. %5E%5E%3B 8|3|4|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Matrix Dragon||22:28:54|06/01/2007|You forget. Utena isn%27t gay. She%27s Anthysexual. That relationship isn%27t about the bodies%2C although I suspect Utenas come to appreciate it %3AP%0D%0A%0D%0ASecondly%2C their love for each other revolutionized an entire reality. They don%27t need to be capital-H Happy%2C they have the universe proving they%27re hopelessly in love. They%27re allowed to be content.%0D%0A%0D%0ABesides%2C you want proof of love and devotion%3F Go reread any scene that involves them in combat%2C especially Valiant Rose and the Revolution will be televised.%0D%0A%0D%0AMatrix Dragon%2C J. Random Nutter 10|3|4|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Gryphon||00:28:11|06/02/2007|%3EBoth of them are repeatedly described as mostly straight%2C so if that %0D%0A%3Ephysical attraction is there%2C it needs to be shown%2C or it will be %0D%0A%3Eassumed _not_ to be. %0D%0A%0D%0ASo noted.%0D%0A%0D%0AFunny story%2C though. A few years ago%2C when %5Bi%5DSymphony No. 2%5B%2Fi%5D was just wrapping up%2C we had a visitor here on the boards who took us to task at some length for implying too %5Bi%5Dmuch%5B%2Fi%5D. It was really rather amusing - well%2C here%2C %5Bhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2FForum%2Fdcboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dread_count%26om%3D469%26forum%3DDCForumID1%7Csee for yourself%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo for a new user to pop in and take us to task for%2C essentially%2C not implying enough%3F Well%2C you can see why we might%27ve found that... a bit funny%2C and a bit irksome%2C at the same time. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3ETheir interactions read %60good friend%27 more than %60lovers%2C%27 contrasting %0D%0A%3Ethe deep UST of the TV series and movie. %0D%0A%0D%0AI can%27t speak to the movie%2C or what any of the TLAs you%27ve used in your posts mean %28I suspect they%27re artifacts of a scene I%27m not into%3F%29%2C but attempting to glark this one from context%2C I have to say I didn%27t take a lot of that away from the TV series. To me%2C Utena seems to spend most of the series going %22What in the %5Bi%5Dhell%5B%2Fi%5D am I %5Bi%5Ddoing%3F%5B%2Fi%5D%22 more than anything else.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut then%2C she does a lot of that with regard to a lot of things%2C not just her love life. It%27s her%2C how you say%2C %5Bi%5Didiom%5B%2Fi%5D. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%5BI%5DPage of Swords%5B%2FI%5D is the first place _since_ their honeymoon where %0D%0A%3Ethey show anything more than affection and loyalty. %0D%0A%0D%0ATo be fair%2C most of the intervening time takes place off-screen...%0D%0A%0D%0ABut I see what you%27re getting at. I have%2C perhaps%2C been remiss in this regard%2C though it was not a deliberate omission. If anything%2C it stems from my own unconscious assumption that the matter was established and settled to the point where it didn%27t need to be reinforced - and anyway%2C I was busy trying to establish %5Bi%5Dother%5B%2Fi%5D matters to a similar degree %28that is%2C in a way%2C what the whole Fourth Symphony%27s %22background hum%22 is about%2C after all%29.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C yeah. Didn%27t leave it out on purpose%2C but it can be argued%2C as you have%2C that it did get left out.%0D%0A%0D%0AUnrelatedly%2C you%27re on the ground in-country right now%3F I think that%27s a first here. We%27ve got quite a few military or ex-military readers%2C but we only tend to see them on these boards when they%27re stateside %28or aboard ship - we do get the occasional swabbie %3A%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AStay safe%2C inasmuch as it%27s possible over there.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A 14|4|10|||||RE%3A Visibility.|wsr||07:11:23|06/02/2007|%3E%3EBoth of them are repeatedly described as mostly straight%2C so if that %0D%0A%3E%3Ephysical attraction is there%2C it needs to be shown%2C or it will be %0D%0A%3E%3Eassumed _not_ to be. %0D%0A%3ESo noted. %0D%0A%0D%0A%3EFunny story%2C though. A few years ago%2C when %5Bi%5DSymphony No. 2%5B%2Fi%5D was %0D%0A%3Ejust wrapping up%2C we had a visitor here on the boards who took us to %0D%0A%3Etask at some length for implying too %5Bi%5Dmuch%5B%2Fi%5D. It was really %0D%0A%3Erather amusing - well%2C here%2C %0D%0A%3Csnip%3E%0D%0A%0D%0Agoodness%2C that got a lot of traffic. I was in my second week at basic training%2C by the timestamps.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3ESo for a new user to pop in and take us to task for%2C essentially%2C not %0D%0A%3Eimplying enough%3F Well%2C you can see why we might%27ve found that... a %0D%0A%3Ebit funny%2C and a bit irksome%2C at the same time. %3A%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AYes%2C I can see that %5E_%5E%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3ETheir interactions read %60good friend%27 more than %60lovers%2C%27 contrasting %0D%0A%3E%3Ethe deep UST of the TV series and movie. %0D%0A%3EI can%27t speak to the movie%2C or what any of the TLAs you%27ve used in %0D%0A%3Eyour posts mean %28I suspect they%27re artifacts of a scene I%27m not %0D%0A%3Einto%3F%29%0D%0A%0D%0AUST%3A unresolved sexual tension.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Ebut attempting to glark this one from context%2C I have to say I %0D%0A%3Edidn%27t take a lot of that away from the TV series. To me%2C Utena seems %0D%0A%3Eto spend most of the series going %22What in the %5Bi%5Dhell%5B%2Fi%5D am I %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5Ddoing%3F%5B%2Fi%5D%22 more than anything else. %0D%0A%0D%0Aand %60why the heck am I doing this%27 and the occasional %60why the heck am I watching Anthy like that%27%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3E%5BI%5DPage of Swords%5B%2FI%5D is the first place _since_ their honeymoon where %0D%0A%3E%3Ethey show anything more than affection and loyalty. %0D%0A%3ETo be fair%2C most of the intervening time takes place off-screen... %0D%0A%0D%0ATrue.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EBut I see what you%27re getting at. I have%2C perhaps%2C been remiss in %0D%0A%3Ethis regard%2C though it was not a deliberate omission. If anything%2C it %0D%0A%3Estems from my own unconscious assumption that the matter was %0D%0A%3Eestablished and settled to the point where it didn%27t need to be %0D%0A%3Ereinforced%0D%0A%0D%0AIt doesn%27t need _much_ reinforcement%2C just enough to show that they do find each other attractive%2C not just comforting and trusted.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe way they interact already would be enough if it wasn%27t for the way they%27re nearly as affectionate towards their friends as they are towards each other%2C so there%27s no contrast%2C if you get what I mean%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Eand anyway%2C I was busy trying to establish %5Bi%5Dother%5B%2Fi%5D %0D%0A%3Ematters to a similar degree %28that is%2C in a way%2C what the whole Fourth %0D%0A%3ESymphony%27s %22background hum%22 is about%2C after all%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AYep. You do a good job showing that both of them find Corwin attractive%2C but skimp their attraction for each other.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3ESo%2C yeah. Didn%27t leave it out on purpose%2C but it can be argued%2C as %0D%0A%3Eyou have%2C that it did get left out. %0D%0A%0D%0AIf you did leave it out on purpose%2C that could make a good story too%2C but I think it%27d take a bit more work.%0D%0A%0D%0AI firmly believe one can be freinds with someone one%27s attracted too%2C and in love with someone one isn%27t attracted to. I also believe that the first state is a lot easier to maintain . . .%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EUnrelatedly%2C you%27re on the ground in-country right now%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ABaghdad.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EI think that%27s a first here.%0D%0A%0D%0Ainteresting%2C that %5E_%5E%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E We%27ve got quite a few military or ex-military %0D%0A%3Ereaders%2C but we only tend to see them on these boards when they%27re %0D%0A%3Estateside %28or aboard ship - we do get the occasional swabbie %3A%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m not surprised%2C really -- both stateside and shipboard tend to be a lot more stable than out here.%0D%0A%0D%0AWe%27ve managed to have internet most of this tour%2C which is good . . . but maybe I%27d get some writing done if I didn%27t.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EStay safe%2C inasmuch as it%27s possible over there. %0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll do my best.%0D%0A%0D%0A 24|4|10|||||RE%3A Visibility.|asuffield||05:34:51|06/06/2007|%3E%3E%5BI%5DPage of Swords%5B%2FI%5D is the first place _since_ their honeymoon where %0D%0A%3E%3Ethey show anything more than affection and loyalty. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3ETo be fair%2C most of the intervening time takes place off-screen... %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EBut I see what you%27re getting at. I have%2C perhaps%2C been remiss in %0D%0A%3Ethis regard%2C though it was not a deliberate omission. If anything%2C it %0D%0A%3Estems from my own unconscious assumption that the matter was %0D%0A%3Eestablished and settled to the point where it didn%27t need to be %0D%0A%3Ereinforced - and anyway%2C I was busy trying to establish %5Bi%5Dother%5B%2Fi%5D %0D%0A%3Ematters to a similar degree %28that is%2C in a way%2C what the whole Fourth %0D%0A%3ESymphony%27s %22background hum%22 is about%2C after all%29. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3ESo%2C yeah. Didn%27t leave it out on purpose%2C but it can be argued%2C as %0D%0A%3Eyou have%2C that it did get left out. %0D%0A%0D%0AObservation%3A most newlyweds are %5Bi%5Dunbearable%5B%2Fi%5D to watch%2C in the sense of %22Get a room and stay in it until you get it out of your systems%22. It could be argued that the original purpose of the honeymoon is to spare their friends and family from having to experience this.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m not sure whether that means we should have seen more or that we shouldn%27t. Perhaps both. 2|1|0|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Gryphon||12:10:59|06/01/2007|%3EThere are no gay boys%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C apart from Beld Marmo%2C and Garon Dessler does make a pass at Devlin once%2C only Devlin%27s too drunk to notice. Oh%2C and there%27s all that subtext with Akio and Touga %28who%2C if you take their wretched mistreatment of Nanami into account%2C meet your %22male-male-female%22 criteria for some twisted value of %22meet%22%29%2C the latter of whom has%2C in the past%2C at least tried to score with both Miki and Saionji.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Eno explanation why%0D%0A%0D%0ADidn%27t come up. Simple as that.%0D%0A%0D%0AWant it even balder%3F I can hook you up. It%27s real simple%3A I%27m not into that%2C and I tend to mostly write about what I%27m into. Oh%2C sure%2C there are other issues - the proportion is similarly off in much of the source material%2C for instance%2C which isn%27t surprising when you consider that %22what I%27m into%22 also governs my selection of same. But mainly it%27s just that I don%27t much care to write about the hot man-love.%0D%0A%0D%0ADouble standard%3F Probably. Woefully under-representational of a rich and vibrant section of our great tapestry of life%3F Certainly. But that%27s the way I roll sometimes.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3ERather more annoying is the way Anthy and Utena seem to have fallen %0D%0A%3Estraight into Lesbian Bed Death. They are married on the same day %0D%0A%3EAnthy is rescued from Cephiro%2C sent off for only a three day %0D%0A%3Ehoneymoon%2C and then we have no more on screen physical affection %0D%0A%3Ebetween them than they share with any of the other females. %0D%0A%0D%0AOh%2C now you%27re just reaching. They only went on a three-day honeymoon because they %5Bi%5Donly had three days%5B%2Fi%5D%2C and as for the rest%2C well%2C just because I%27m not the go-to guy for lurid detail doesn%27t mean they%27re not gettin%27 it on. It%27s just that this is a mental TV show most of the time%2C and there%27s a lot of stuff that doesn%27t happen on screen%2C you know%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A 3|2|2|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Wedge||12:26:03|06/01/2007|%3EBut mainly it%27s just that I don%27t much care to write about the hot %0D%0A%3Eman-love. %0D%0A%0D%0APlanet Silverlake.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gweep.net%2F%7Ewedge%2Fufchad_ficon.jpg%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd%5DChad Collier%0D%0ASmirking Kilrathi%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%230000CC%5DThe Captain of the Gravy Train%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5Bsmall%5D%22%5Bi%5DNobody%5B%2Fi%5D gives them a %5Bi%5Dflag%5B%2Fi%5D in %5Bi%5DSilverlake%5B%2Fi%5D.%22%5B%2Fsmall%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D 5|2|2|||||RE%3A Visibility.|wsr||14:28:45|06/01/2007|%3E%3EThere are no gay boys%0D%0A%3EWell%2C apart from Beld Marmo%2C and Garon Dessler does make a pass at %0D%0A%3EDevlin once%2C only Devlin%27s too drunk to notice.%0D%0A%0D%0A_Doh_%0D%0A%0D%0AI retract the claim%2C and blame it on staying up %27til past midnight every night from when I started reading until when I finished%2C and the night I spent out pulling security while Iraqi Army guys moved concrete barriers around %27til four in the morning . . .%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EOh%2C and there%27s all %0D%0A%3Ethat subtext with Akio and Touga %28who%2C if you take their wretched %0D%0A%3Emistreatment of Nanami into account%2C meet your %22male-male-female%22 %0D%0A%3Ecriteria for some twisted value of %22meet%22%29%2C the latter of whom has%2C in %0D%0A%3Ethe past%2C at least tried to score with both Miki and Saionji. %0D%0A%0D%0AAkio%27s a demon%2C so I didn%27t even think of him %5E%5E%3B But I count EPLs%2C so EPGs should count%2C too . . .%0D%0A%0D%0AAkio never reads as doing anything for love%2C or even lust%2C it%27s all power and dominance.%0D%0A %0D%0A%3E%3Eno explanation why%0D%0A%3EDidn%27t come up. Simple as that. %0D%0A%0D%0AHaving forgotten Beld%2C it was an issue. Having remembered him%2C and having remembered being amused by Garon%27s pass%2C the issue fades -- there%27s no need to mention why there%27s no gay boys if they%27re just boring %5E%5E%3B%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EWant it even balder%3F I can hook you up. It%27s real simple%3A I%27m not %0D%0A%3Einto that%2C and I tend to mostly write about what I%27m into.%0D%0A%3Csnippage%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AExactly. Never said you shouldn%27t.%0D%0A%0D%0AOn the other hand%2C a few of the characters would notice%2C either because it%27s unusual for them or because they had their gaydar twigged -- not necessarily by named characters%2C just the couple in the booth at Chets%2C or the trio walking down the sidewalk with a few shopping bags%2C unless they are hiding or not there.%0D%0A%0D%0ACorwin -- he%27d never bat an eye%2C because for him it%27s familiar and uninteresting both.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnthy%27d probably get a kick out of it%2C any time she notices%2C the way I think maybe Iraq isn%27t entirely screwed up when I see a pair of schoolgirls or bearded guys walking hand-in-hand%2C even though I know it%27s not nearly as good an indicator over here as it would be stateside.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EDouble standard%3F Probably. Woefully under-representational of a rich %0D%0A%3Eand vibrant section of our great tapestry of life%3F Certainly. But %0D%0A%3Ethat%27s the way I roll sometimes. %0D%0A%0D%0ADon%27t take this as an attack at all -- it%27s just something that wouldn%27t let go of me after I noticed it%2C even if I did notice it during a bout of sleep-deprived forgetfullness.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3ERather more annoying is the way Anthy and Utena seem to have fallen %0D%0A%3E%3Estraight into Lesbian Bed Death. They are married on the same day %0D%0A%3E%3EAnthy is rescued from Cephiro%2C sent off for only a three day %0D%0A%3E%3Ehoneymoon%2C and then we have no more on screen physical affection %0D%0A%3E%3Ebetween them than they share with any of the other females. %0D%0A%0D%0A%3EOh%2C now you%27re just reaching. They only went on a three-day honeymoon %0D%0A%3Ebecause they %5Bi%5Donly had three days%5B%2Fi%5D%2C%0D%0A%0D%0ARight. And neither of them is given to wistful sighing or romantic twaddle%2C but it comes off as very anti-climatic%2C as if _all_ they%27re feeling about being back together is relieved.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Eand as for the rest%2C well%2C %0D%0A%3Ejust because I%27m not the go-to guy for lurid detail doesn%27t mean %0D%0A%3Ethey%27re not gettin%27 it on. %0D%0A%0D%0AYep%2C but you%27re painting a picture with words here%2C and the picture is generally clear%2C well-rendered%2C but passionless. They%27re very comfortable with each other. They trust each other. They just don%27t come off as _into_ each other. Adorable isn%27t lovely isn%27t pretty isn%27t beautiful isn%27t sexy.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EIt%27s just that this is a mental TV show most of the time%2C and there%27s a lot of %0D%0A%3Estuff that doesn%27t happen on screen%2C you know%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AYes%2C but there are ways of showing what is happening without showing it%3A we see Kirk pulling his boots on in the morning in ST%3ATOS%2C or Misa zipping up her top in _Macross%3A Do You Remember Love_%2C or Tara%27s little crooked %60isn%27t she lovely%27 smiles on BtvS.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt is in such ways that we know most of the named characters are both getting some%2C and liking it . . . %0D%0A%0D%0ASorry if I%27ve come off as accusatory%2C as that wasn%27t my intent.%0D%0A 6|3|5|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Sofaspud||19:34:18|06/01/2007|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-07 AT 07:43 PM (EDT)]Hrm. In my opinion %28take it for what it%27s worth %3B%29%2C you%27re snagging on something that really just doesn%27t matter.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn one of the stories -- forgive me if I don%27t look it up%2C but I don%27t think SotS has a full-text index anywhere %2AI%2A can reach -- it%27s mentioned that same-sex couples are A-OK in the modern galaxy -- marriage and children included. Quite explicitly it states this%2C if I remember correctly. Now%2C the %2Aaction%2A may all be focused on hot lesbian love-fests %28with the occasional sneaky sausage finding its way in there%29%2C but that%27s not due to some twisted desire on the authors%27 parts to %27vanish%27 a significant portion of the population%2C but rather%2C because the characters just happen to BE that way. As Gryphon has stated numerous times%2C quite often the characters end up driving the bus -- and that%27s the mark of a good story%2C I think%3B your characters SHOULD surprise you%2C because otherwise%2C you%27re just wanking and waving the results around like they%27re something unique.%0D%0A%0D%0ASince there aren%27t really any gay men who have a lot of screen time%2C you don%27t %27see%27 it%2C but that doesn%27t mean it%27s vanished. Would you rather they beat us over the head with how progressive and modern and liberal and accepting the future is%3F I personally have no need for that -- in fact%2C if it came across that way%2C I%27d probably stop reading%2C since that%27s a mark of condescension on the part of the author towards their audience.%0D%0A%0D%0AI guess what I%27m saying is%2C just because you don%27t SEE the hot man-love doesn%27t mean it isn%27t happening. I personally think of it this way%3A for every male-male couple we DON%27T explicitly see wandering around%2C there are literally thousands that the on-screen characters %5Bi%5Daren%27t surprised or shocked by enough to comment on%5B%2Fi%5D. And THAT%27s a good thing.%0D%0A%0D%0AHopefully I%27m making sense. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0AOn edit%3A I shall now step off my soapbox and address the OTHER part of your post%2C which I actually intended to do from the start. I got sidetracked.%0D%0A%0D%0APerhaps I%27m cynical -- strike that%2C I %2Aam%2A cynical -- but I don%27t need constant reaffirmations of undying love from my romantic partners%2C and I hope they don%27t need it either. I think the couples%2Ftriads you mention here are the same way. They%27re all -- even Anthy%2C who had probably one of the most fucked-up backstories of ANY of them -- independent%2C strong-willed%2C competent%2C and self-reliant. In short%2C the sort of person who may pull some romantic stunt out of the blue just because%2C but won%27t do it every day because there%27s no need%3A they KNOW the other person%28s%29 loves them%2C they KNOW they love the other person%28s%29%2C why get all caught up in proving it%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAlso%2C this is Space Opera%2C not Harlequin in Space. %3A%29 Traditionally%2C the former has not really had much in the way of love scenes or even demonstrations of affection. As a matter of fact%2C I can%27t recall all that many GOOD Space Operas that even HAD demonstrative romantic involvements. I%27m not talking one-shot lust-fests%2C but a long-lasting marriage or equivalent like the characters in SotS have.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn fact%2C I%27d go so far as to say that SotS has the most extensive network of romance I%27ve yet see in a space opera-style piece%2C and the amazing thing about it is that it works. Hell%2C in some cases it%27s essential to the story%2C which %28aside from the Kidnapped Princess gambit%29 is hardly typical for this genre.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll wrap up with that%2C I think. I%27m probably beginning to ramble. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--sofaspud%0D%0A-- 12|3|5|||||RE%3A Visibility.|FubarObfusco||01:36:28|06/02/2007|%3EYes%2C but there are ways of showing what is happening without showing %0D%0A%3Eit%3A we see Kirk pulling his boots on in the morning in ST%3ATOS%2C or Misa %0D%0A%3Ezipping up her top in _Macross%3A Do You Remember Love_%2C or Tara%27s %0D%0A%3Elittle crooked %60isn%27t she lovely%27 smiles on BtvS. %0D%0A%0D%0ADude. Tara and Willow were much more obviously %22into each other%22 -- and oh%2C quite literally -- than that.%0D%0A%0D%0APerhaps you%27re forgetting %22Once More With Feeling%22.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5BI%5D%22You make me come ... ... ... plete%22%5B%2FI%5D ring a bell%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AHonestly%2C UF doesn%27t really need anything quite that blatant%2C does it%3F%0D%0A 13|4|12|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Gryphon||02:00:44|06/02/2007|%3EHonestly%2C UF doesn%27t really need anything quite that blatant%2C does it%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AIt could be argued that we%27ve occasionally %5Bi%5Dhad%5B%2Fi%5D things that blatant%2C but I don%27t customarily go looking for opportunities to use them.%0D%0A%0D%0AThen again%2C I%27m not a big Mutant Enemy fan%2C so I only know what the hell you%27re talking about thanks to a phenomenon I can only describe as cultural lint accumulation.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A 15|4|12|||||RE%3A Visibility.|wsr||11:55:43|06/02/2007|%3E%3E%3Csnip%3Eor Tara%27s %0D%0A%3E%3Elittle crooked %60isn%27t she lovely%27 smiles on BtvS. %0D%0A%3EDude. Tara and Willow were much more obviously %22into each other%22 -- %0D%0A%3Eand oh%2C quite literally -- than that. %0D%0A%0D%0AAt times%2C yes%2C but the subtle %60isn%27t she great%27 looks of quiet adoration are what%27s missing%2C not the cuddled up in bed together scenes.%0D%0A %0D%0A%3EPerhaps you%27re forgetting %3Csnip%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AI stopped watching BtVS very shortly after that%2C partly because I was without a TV for four months%2C but mostly because the sinking dread that I%27d been feeling since the start of season six came to a head.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EHonestly%2C UF doesn%27t really need anything quite that blatant%2C does it%3F %0D%0A%0D%0ADidn%27t say it did.%0D%0A%0D%0AWith a visual medium%2C one can be a little more subtle since there is a lot of detail to play with. With text%2C it%27s more difficult to quietly say something%2C but not impossible.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Jim pulled his boots on afterwards%22 isn%27t nearly as subtle as the original%2C nor is %22Misa tugged her flightsuit%27s zipper up as they walk out to greet the sound of engines%22%2C nor %22Caught admiring Willow%27s hand in her own%2C Tara couldn%27t help the half-smile that twinkled in her eyes as the other woman%27s blush just barely touches the tips of her ears.%22 Amusingly%2C the last one says the most and implies the least.%0D%0A 7|1|0|||||RE%3A Visibility.|Star Ranger4||20:58:34|06/01/2007|Dude. Your reading WAY to much into this.%0D%0A%0D%0ARemember that its just a story and you really should %5Bbig%5D%5Bb%5DRELAX%5B%2Fb%5D%5B%2Fbig%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A 9|1|0|||||RE%3A Visibility.|truss||23:58:42|06/01/2007|Dude%2C you read NXE%2C and you completely missed the whole Tabris%2FJon thing%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A...ok%2C I suppose that%27s fair%2C because so did Jon. But%2C still. %3B%29 11|2|9|||||RE%3A Visibility.|clg||01:08:49|06/02/2007|There was a Tabris%2FJon thing%3F Huh. Not a huge surprise given the source material%2C but... huh. I guess it%27s hard to see because%2C on all but one occasion when Tabris and Jon are together%2C Rei is present as well%2C and they had rather weightier matters to deal with on that one occasion.%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C at least the end of 3%3A9 makes more sense.%0D%0A%0D%0A - Chad%0D%0A 16|2|9|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Pasha||18:17:27|06/02/2007|%3EDude%2C you read NXE%2C and you completely missed the whole Tabris%2FJon %0D%0A%3Ething%3F %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E...ok%2C I suppose that%27s fair%2C because so did Jon. But%2C still. %3B%29 %0D%0A%0D%0A...yeah%2C there was a tabris Jon thing%3F hunh%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A-- %0D%0A-Pasha%0D%0A%22I invented Warp Drive%2C whatta ya got%3F%22%0D%0A%22I%27m the Norse God of Mecha.%22%0D%0A%22Well%2C I guess you win then.%22 17|3|16|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Gryphon||18:22:28|06/02/2007|%3E%3EDude%2C you read NXE%2C and you completely missed the whole Tabris%2FJon %0D%0A%3E%3Ething%3F %0D%0A%3E%3E%0D%0A%3E%3E...ok%2C I suppose that%27s fair%2C because so did Jon. But%2C still. %3B%29 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E...yeah%2C there was a tabris Jon thing%3F hunh%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AIf Phil Thorne were still around here%2C I%27d ask him what the point of having subtext is if nobody%27s going to pay attention to it... %0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A%22And all this time%2C%22 %26l%3BRei%26r%3B said%2C %22I thought it was because of %5Bi%5Dme%5Bi%5D...%22%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A 18|4|17|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Pasha||05:09:40|06/05/2007|%3EIf Phil Thorne were still around here%2C I%27d ask him what the point of %0D%0A%3Ehaving subtext is if nobody%27s going to pay attention to it... %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E--G. %0D%0A%3E%22And all this time%2C%22 %26l%3BRei%26r%3B said%2C %22I thought it was because of %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5Dme%5Bi%5D...%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A...I just went grepping through the NXE text for Tabris%2FKevin Nelson%2C %2Alooking%2A for subtext. And%2C with the exception of that one kiss%2C I don%27t really see anything that%27s subtexty saying that Kevin had a crush on Jon. But%2C it%27s also like%2C two in the damned morning%2C so maybe I just missed it. %0D%0A%0D%0A-Pasha%0D%0A%22I invented Warp Drive%2C whatta ya got%3F%22%0D%0A%22I%27m the Norse God of Mecha.%22%0D%0A%22Well%2C I guess you win then.%22 19|5|18|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Gryphon||12:19:40|06/05/2007|%3E...I just went grepping through the NXE text for Tabris%2FKevin Nelson%2C %0D%0A%3E%2Alooking%2A for subtext. And%2C with the exception of that one kiss%2C I %0D%0A%3Edon%27t really see anything that%27s subtexty saying that Kevin had a %0D%0A%3Ecrush on Jon.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt goes rather beyond having a crush. Tabris abandons even the pretense of neutrality expected of his Choir and%2C in essence%2C %5Bi%5Dshatters his own soul%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0Aas part of his determined efforts throughout the Third Symphony to make sure that Jon and Rei sort out their baggage%2C realize their potential%2C and eventually%2C well%2C save the world. Rei%2C who had known him longer%2C tacitly assumed that this was at least partly out of some hopeless%2C misguided devotion to her. As it turns out%2C she was half right.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A 20|6|19|||||RE%3A Visibility.|Shaithisx||14:21:19|06/05/2007|%2Ablink%2A Whoa%21 Never caught that at all%21 I thought the line was Rei joking about Jon having a fondness for Angels in general instead of Rei in particular. %0D%0A%0D%0AI got a couple points for catching an inference but lost all the points since I got the prime participants wrong.%0D%0A%0D%0ANot that I want to heap work on the editors shoulders%2C but this and my question about DJ%27s %28to me%29 mysterious burned hands way back at the start makes me wish for Annotations for NXE like the SOS ones. %0D%0A%0D%0AShaithisXL %28the amused%29 23|7|20|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Gryphon||02:07:32|06/06/2007|%3ENot that I want to heap work on the editors shoulders%2C but this and my %0D%0A%3Equestion about DJ%27s %28to me%29 mysterious burned hands way back at the %0D%0A%3Estart makes me wish for Annotations for NXE like the SOS ones. %0D%0A%0D%0AHeh%2C I%27ve considered it. The main problems are%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A1%29 I would have to re-read the first season%3B and%0D%0A2%29 At this point%2C I%27m not sure %5Bi%5Dwe%5B%2Fi%5D would remember what the hell we were driving at with half of that stuff. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A 25|8|23|||||RE%3A Visibility.|Shaithisx||09:13:22|06/06/2007|Again%2C I%27m not trying to press the point%2C so I%27ll just say this and then drop it.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf going back to the start is too stressing%2C maybe just the last season or the movie%3F %28Not that a Directors Cut with Commentary of NXE%3AAN wouldn%27t be a pretty taxing task.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%2Ashrugs%2A While it would be very cool for a little more insight%2C I am content with occasional glimpses behind the curtain that we get. The most unique aspect of all the Eyrie works is the fact the readers have the chance to speak with the writers and editors. For me%2C that is a big plus to an already entertaining and stimulating series. %0D%0A%0D%0AShaithisXL %28the interested%29 26|9|25|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Gryphon||13:35:16|06/06/2007|%3E%28Not that a Directors Cut with Commentary of %0D%0A%3ENXE%3AAN wouldn%27t be a pretty taxing task.%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AYeah%2C we had plans for %28and may still do%29 an %5Bi%5DApotheosis Now%5B%2Fi%5D %22DVD edition%22%2C with a bunch of extra stuff%2C some deleted scenes%2C some %5Bi%5Dmade-up%5B%2Fi%5D deleted scenes%2C and so on%2C but not long after the movie came out%2C I moved back to Maine%2C Truss moved in with his girlfriend %28not that I%27m in any way blaming her%2C specifically%29%2C we all discovered %5Bi%5DCity of Heroes%5B%2Fi%5D%2C and Zoner got down to the important and time-consuming task of working himself to death%2C so we%27ve never got round to it yet. A %22commentary track%22 would have been %28and may yet be%2C one of these days%29 a logical part of that.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A 27|9|25|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Pasha||17:34:06|06/06/2007|%3E%2Ashrugs%2A While it would be very cool for a little more insight%2C I am %0D%0A%3Econtent with occasional glimpses behind the curtain that we get. The %0D%0A%3Emost unique aspect of all the Eyrie works is the fact the readers have %0D%0A%3Ethe chance to speak with the writers and editors. For me%2C that is a %0D%0A%3Ebig plus to an already entertaining and stimulating series. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ALeaving aside the %22most unique%22%2C most authors %28not even web authors%29 these days have message boards%2C or e-mail addresses at least%2C that they reply to in a very timely fashion. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A-- %0D%0A-Pasha%0D%0A%22I invented Warp Drive%2C whatta ya got%3F%22%0D%0A%22I%27m the Norse God of Mecha.%22%0D%0A%22Well%2C I guess you win then.%22 21|6|19|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Pasha||14:23:01|06/05/2007|%3EIt goes rather beyond having a crush. Tabris abandons even the %0D%0A%3Epretense of neutrality expected of his Choir and%2C in essence%2C %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5Dshatters his own soul%5B%2Fi%5D %0D%0A%3Eas part of his determined efforts throughout the Third Symphony to %0D%0A%3Emake sure that Jon and Rei sort out their baggage%2C realize their %0D%0A%3Epotential%2C and eventually%2C well%2C save the world. Rei%2C who had known %0D%0A%3Ehim longer%2C tacitly assumed that this was at least partly out of some %0D%0A%3Ehopeless%2C misguided devotion to her. As it turns out%2C she was half %0D%0A%3Eright.%0D%0A%0D%0AOk%2C I%27ll take your word for it%2C because you%27re smart about stuff like this. But I %2Atotally%2A missed that%2C on multiple re-reads. I mean%2C I got that Tabris%5B1%5D was broken because he was helping the humans%2C but I thought it was more Humanity in general%2C and not specifically Jon and Rei. %2Ashrug%2A%0D%0A%0D%0A-- %0D%0A-Pasha%0D%0A%22I invented Warp Drive%2C whatta ya got%3F%22%0D%0A%22I%27m the Norse God of Mecha.%22%0D%0A%22Well%2C I guess you win then.%22%0D%0A%5B1%5D Totally aside%2C my fingers have the hardest time typing %27Tabris%27 and not %27Travis%27. It takes me two or three tries every time. 22|7|21|||||RE%3A Visibility.|BZArcher||20:33:57|06/05/2007|I think the key moment comes back in 3-5...%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DKevin smiled. %22Not necessarily. He loves you%2C you love him%2C%0D%0Aor the song wouldn%27t have worked.%22%0D%0A%09%22What about you%3F%22 she wondered. %22You were singing too.%22%0D%0A%09%22Balance%2C%22 Kevin replied. %22Am I not of the Choir of Elohim%3F%22%0D%0A%09Rei nodded%2C but Kevin hadn%27t met her eyes when he said it.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ALike the bossman said%2C he%27s not singing because of balance. He%27s singing because he loves Jon%2C too. 28|8|22|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Sofaspud||00:07:40|06/07/2007|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-07 AT 00:09 AM (EDT)]%3EI think the key moment comes back in 3-5... %0D%0A%3E...snip...%0D%0A%3ELike the bossman said%2C he%27s not singing because of balance. He%27s %0D%0A%3Esinging because he loves Jon%2C too. %0D%0A%0D%0AI would just like to point out that%2C throughout this Tabris%3C-%3EJon discussion%2C and even through a quick skim of the source%2C I had -- for whatever undoubtedly screwed up reason -- I had it stuck in my head that Jon%3F Was %5Bi%5DTruss%5B%2Fi%5D. %28Well%2C it%27s an easy mistake... Jon Ellison%2C John Trussell%2C y%27know... easy%2C right%3F%29%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd for the life of me I couldn%27t find ANY subtext where Tabris even hinted at caring about Truss.%0D%0A%0D%0ASomeday I%27ll get this whole %27reading for comprehension%27 thing%2C I swear.%0D%0A%0D%0A--sofaspud%0D%0A-- 29|9|28|||1||RE%3A Visibility.|Gryphon||00:11:51|06/07/2007|%3EAnd for the life of me I couldn%27t find ANY subtext where Tabris even %0D%0A%3Ehinted at caring about Truss. %0D%0A%0D%0A%22In a jailhouse interview this week%2C serial killer Charles Manson said that J.D. Salinger%27s %5Bi%5DThe Catcher in the Rye%5B%2Fi%5D was his favorite book. J.D. Salinger refused to comment on this matter%2C so we asked %5Bi%5DPierre%5B%2Fi%5D Salinger%2C who said sure%2C he could comment%2C but he didn%27t %5Bi%5Dknow%5B%2Fi%5D J.D. Salinger%2C we said what the hell%2C forget it.%22%0D%0A - Dennis Miller%2C %5Bi%5DSaturday Night Live Weekend Update%5B%2Fi%5D%2C 150%2C000 years ago%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A