19||0|2694|1|yes
0|0|0|||||Is Laudre right about S4%3F|Gryphon||04:43:17|12/19/2006|
1|1|0|||1||Is Laudre Right%3F|Matrix Dragon||05:17:52|12/19/2006|I personally think Laudre is incredibly wrong. I%27m rereading Symphony now%2C and once again I%27m finding the evolving relationship between Anthy%2C Corwin and Utena through the third Symphony one of the most entertaining things in it. And I love virtually everything about SOS3%2C so take that as you will.%0D%0A%0D%0AThey didn%27t sleep together just to beat Akio%2C any more then Anthy slept with Corwin just to have a child. Since Corwin and Utena met%2C their relationship has been evolving and changing%2C and as a cornerstone of both their lives%2C Anthys feelings also evolved and changed. The fact that Corwin could gain her love%2C just as Utena did in the Lost Tournement%3F It wasn%27t poor writing%2C it wasn%27t contrieved. It was right.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhen Akio made his %27offer%27 to Corwin%2C it was intended%2C in my opinion%2C as nothing more then a cruel way to inform the Trinity that he had returned%2C that he was more powerful then ever. But at the same time%2C that he was still unable to escape his twisted nature%2C by jabbing at the %27wound%27 in Corwins heart.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnthy already loved Corwin. The fact that she would trust him%2C care for him enough to bear his child - Which%2C let%27s be honest here%2C would be no small thing for a woman who suffered so much at the ones of another man she once loved - proves that. She has known since the day Corwin became Pillar that Utena and Corwin loved each other deeply. And having seen Akio use that love to hurt them both%2C how could she not take action%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AInterlude at Vortigern%27s Lake No. 2 in C %28For Today%29 is about Anthy taking action. About the conclusion of her years of effort to ensure that love would prevail. It is%2C in my mind%2C one of the finest chapters of Undocumented Features. %0D%0A%0D%0AWhen I first read that story%2C I was at my parents home for Christmas. My parents don%27t have the internet. I read it on the tiny screen of an old mobile phone that only displayed text... and it was worth it for those last words. %0D%0A%0D%0A%22This will be a good life. Damn good.%22
2|1|0|||||I picked Option 5%2C myself.|O_M||05:47:40|12/19/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-06 AT 06:00 AM (EST)]Honestly%2C I%27ve read the involved pieces once each. Having to have an internet connected comp of some kind to do so kinda blunts the re-readability%2C along with the fact that unless I pause at the beginning of a symphony%2C the momentum involved tends to drag me along till I finish it. Said symphonies usually have enough text to choke a Dantrovian carnivore%2C and devour hours of my time about as badly. %3B%29%0D%0A%0D%0AThus%2C I can only tell you what my thoughts were on my first and only%28so far. Following the annotations devotedly%2C and saving the stuff to disk for offline reading%29 going through the story. And%2C with rereading the annotations involved%2C I%27ve noticed my opinions haven%27t changed.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5D I mean%2C here he%27s just affirmed the one great love of his life with an act of %5Bi%5Dstaggering%5B%2Fi%5D heroism%2C and it costs him the only prize he really wants%3F That%27s like a Hideaki Anno plot. It%27s not the way I want my worlds to work.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI read NXE a year after I finished a ton of UF because someone assured me you WEREN%27T that kind of writer and that the NXE world wasn%27t a pointless exercise of resisting the inevitability of fate. Thus%2C at the time%2C this scene seemed slightly....off. Though in a sense%2C his %5Bi%5Dabsolution%5B%2Fi%5D of that seemingly crushing paradox%28at the time%29 seemed to mitigate it%2C I wondered slightly. Just slightly though. After all%2C it was seemingly the final sacrifice in a long line of them that...well%2C there seemed to be no OVERT prize%28yeah%2C that godhood thing. Small change.%29 All he got was to see Utena perfectly happy. To witness it from the outside. Even in hindsight%2C the feeling of sacrifice%28%22he loves her enough%2C he%27s willing to lose her forever%22%2C to use your words%29 is still intact%2C unless we deliberately take it into a meta viewpoint.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DFortunately%2C Anthy is wiser than I am%2C and it wasn%27t long before I began to realize that this wasn%27t the end at all. Indeed%2C with her finally back on the stage and able to contribute%2C it was%2C in a way%2C only the beginning.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThis story%28Interlude on Titan%29 hammered away my doubts as of the end of Symphony 2. Corwin loves Utena. It may seem to be impossible for that to be%2C but he does. He is willing to be the -father- of his love and her wife%27s child%2C because they%28and more importantly she%29 want to have one. And he does it with chivalry intact. No one ever suggested that Utena be the mother%28I%27m operating off memory here%2C so bear with me any minor errors %3A%29%2C though I have no doubt all of them were thinking about it at least somewhat. But still...he did it for her. And that act of love is what -earned- him a reward%2C because it showed the depth of his love for Utena to Anthy%2C who was%2C indeed%2C the pivotal person in this triangle.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd so%2C all Akio did%3F Sped things up. He took his worst possible shot at the love there%2C one dipped in the venom of half-truths that he so excels with%2C and it backfired %5Bi%5Dspectacularly%5B%2Fi%5D. He didn%27t sunder their love. He made it stronger than it ever was. His attempt to weaken them instead accomplished the opposite. All that he really did was force Anthy to step out of the patient%2C considerate form and take action on this point%2C much like he%27s done before. It fit so well because he STILL acts like Anthy is how she used be%2C and will just remain in the backround and not resist him directly. And thus%2C his plan is undone because that is exactly what his cruelty to her has taught her that there are times where she must do so.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd some might claim that Anthy%27s weakened for just falling in love with Corwin because he fell in love with Utena. They%27re wrong. The only difference is that Corwin had to catch up with Anthy%28as seen in Interlude on Titan%29. She%27s fallen in love with a man who%2C essentially%2C reminds her of all the GOOD things about her brother. Because everything up to Interlude at Vortigern%27s Lake from Corwin%27s perspective was about one thing%3A sacrifice. Not sacrifice in the name of some overarching abstract good. Sacrifice for the one he loved%2C unconditionally. Expecting nothing in return%2C but willing to do so because of that same love. Anthy fell in love with that%2C from the moment Corwin accepted%28as far as she could tell at the time%29the eternal servitude of becoming the Pillar%2C to when he agreed to help them have a child. He%27s a prince that fights not for the prize%2C but for the cause%2C and is it any wonder Anthy fell in love with someone so similar in his own way to both her husband and her brother%2C two people she loved with all of her heart%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ANo%2C I don%27t think you screwed it up at all. Perhaps unintentionally%2C you laid the groundwork that made it WORK better than planning for Corwin to be with Utena at the end. You did good%2C damn good. And if anyone choses not to see that....it%27s their opinion. But in my opinion%2C they%27re wrong.
6|2|2|||||RE%3A I picked Option 5%2C myself.|dstar||12:33:41|12/19/2006|%3EAnd some might claim that Anthy%27s weakened for just falling in love %0D%0A%3Ewith Corwin because he fell in love with Utena. They%27re wrong. The %0D%0A%3Eonly difference is that Corwin had to catch up with Anthy%28as seen in %0D%0A%3EInterlude on Titan%29. She%27s fallen in love with a man who%2C essentially%2C %0D%0A%3Ereminds her of all the GOOD things about her brother. Because %0D%0A%3Eeverything up to Interlude at Vortigern%27s Lake from Corwin%27s %0D%0A%3Eperspective was about one thing%3A sacrifice. Not sacrifice in the name %0D%0A%3Eof some overarching abstract good. Sacrifice for the one he loved%2C %0D%0A%3Eunconditionally. Expecting nothing in return%2C but willing to do so %0D%0A%3Ebecause of that same love. Anthy fell in love with that%2C from the %0D%0A%3Emoment Corwin accepted%28as far as she could tell at the time%29the %0D%0A%3Eeternal servitude of becoming the Pillar%2C to when he agreed to help %0D%0A%3Ethem have a child. He%27s a prince that fights not for the prize%2C but %0D%0A%3Efor the cause%2C and is it any wonder Anthy fell in love with someone so %0D%0A%3Esimilar in his own way to both her husband and her brother%2C two people %0D%0A%3Eshe loved with all of her heart%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AIn fact%2C Corwin did exactly the same thing for Anthy that he did for Utena%3A he took the wounds that Akio had inflicted and healed them. Akio took her freedom and made her a helpless puppet%3B Corwin became the Pillar instead of her%2C and%2C in so doing%2C freed her from Akio%27s control. Akio kept her weak and helpless%3B Corwin taught her to fight%2C and then _let_ her fight. Akio raped her%3B Corwin made love to her.%0D%0A%0D%0AThere are probably other instances I could find if I looked for them%3B this is something that just occured to me. I must admit to wondering if it was deliberate%2C or if it was simply the result of well-honed writers instincts.
3|1|0|||1||Twit.|Apostate_Soul||05:53:22|12/19/2006|Of all things...%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m going to be honest here. I found that the whole tone of S4 to be rather different to the other three Symphonies. This was a little jarring%2C I%27ll admit%2C as I was reading through them all in one go. But I enjoyed it. I was cheering for C and U when they finally got round to it%2C because it was one of those things that was screaming to take place for ages. And considering the Anthy thing%2C it was needed to reset the balance. Mind you%2C since the characters are effectively marrying each other... that%27s going to be a rather interesting situation%2C but not my place to say.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnyway- he%27s wrong. Maybe the tone is different%2C and%2C as other people have suggested%2C the whole Utena%2FCorwin thing was contrived... but getting a story to flow naturally in the directions you want it without a bit of contrivance is like herding cats on speed with a toothbrush and your voice alone.%0D%0A____________________%0D%0A%0D%0A%22It%27s difficult keeping up with the cross-continuity%2C but I think Cosmouse just gave The Saturnian Scraphunter his Ultimate Pacifier to use against Galactapuss...%22
4|1|0|||||That boy just ain%27t right.|BZArcher||08:26:09|12/19/2006|When I read S4 %28which admittedly%2C I did out of order%2C the first time%2C due to being linked to %5Bi%5DS4 M7%5B%2Fi%5D as my intro to EPU%29%2C I thought it was a pretty fun romp.%0D%0A%0D%0AHowever%2C when I went back and read things in order%2C it became something more - I think that S4 is where we see all these characters who%2C regardless of if they were original creations or appropriations%2C really grow into their own and hit stride. A ton of the payoffs from the earlier movements hit%2C and all the characters seem to gel just a little bit more%2C especially as the Symphony hits home. That%27s part of that changing tone - the characters all got older%2C they all changed a bit%2C and we see them deal with some pretty severe challenges.%0D%0A%0D%0AWere some of the relationship bits surprising%3F Kinda%2C to me%2C because I was never and RGU fan%2C so I didn%27t know about all the Miki%2FJuri backstory%2C but you sure as hell built the Kaitlyn%2FMiki and Kaitlyn%2FJuri stuff very%2C very well%2C and you%27d been building up the Anthy%2FCorwin%2FKozue%2FUtena situation the entire SOS arc%2C so I thought it was inevitable%2C and had been gradually getting paid off all the way to back in S3%2C and you still took the entiriety of S4 to make the final payoffs. Liza%2FKurt%2FAzalynn was a tad out of the blue%2C but hey%2C that%27s love sometimes%2C and you made it work pretty well in the later appearances.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m 99%25 sure I%27m rambling%2C so I%27m gonna make myself wrap it up%3A It did change%2C a bit%2C from the earlier Symphonies%2C but that%27s not a bad thing - as much as anything you could put it down to the writing staff getting a bit older%2C craftier%2C and experienced too. I certainly never felt any problems or letdowns%2C and if we all hated it so much%2C then why are we all happily waiting for the next chunk of Symphony 5%3F
5|1|0|||1||I should point out...|Gryphon||11:01:42|12/19/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-06 AT 11:02 AM (EST)]... that I have no way of finding out who voted for what%2C so don%27t hold back on that account.%0D%0A%0D%0AI should%27ve noted that last night%2C but I was a bit preoccupied %28and tired%29.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
8|2|5|||||RE%3A I should point out...|jadmire||18:52:02|12/19/2006|I have no problem with saying that I%27m in the %22he just doesn%27t get it%22 category.  I see precisely nothing%2C nada%2C zip%2C zero%2C zilch wrong with the way the Corwin%2FUtena%2FAnthy relationship has developed from day one %28occasional questions about one or another detail are precisely that%29.  Carry on carrying on.%0D%0A%0D%0A-Joe-
7|1|0|||||Best Fit|StClair||18:01:56|12/19/2006|I%27m looking for the %22this is YOUR story to tell%2C not his%22 button%2C but I%27m not seein%27 it.%0D%0ASo I went with %22just doesn%27t get it.%22  %2Ashrug%2A%0D%0A%0D%0AThought it was proceeding just fine%2C myself.%0D%0A%0D%0A
9|1|0|||||I quite liked it%2C actually.|zerosumgame||21:23:00|12/19/2006|I can see the point laudre is making%2C but I don%27t think he%27s right.  It didn%27t feel rushed%2C or forced%2C or contrived when I read it%2C and I%27m sorry he feels that way.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt was goddamned brilliant and it moved me to tears.%0D%0A%0D%0A%27Nuff said.%0D%0A%0D%0A-z
10|1|0|||||Pobody%27s Nerfect|Zox||22:11:37|12/19/2006|I%27d just make three points.%0D%0A%0D%0A%281%29 I enjoyed this arc thoroughly.%0D%0A%0D%0A%282%29 People%27s tastes vary. Sometimes they even change over time. But you%27ll never get everyone to agree on anything. %28I%27m sure there%27s someone out there who thinks that Lois McMaster Bujold is a hack.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%283%29 Even the greatest writers throw out an occasional clunker%2C though I don%27t think this was one. %28Can anybody go back in time and keep Heinlein from writing %5Bi%5DThe Cat Who Walks Through Walls%5B%2Fi%5D%3F Please%3F%29%0D%0A%0D%0AFrankly%2C the only stories in UF that I haven%27t enjoyed were the ones that dealt with Noriko%27s descent into madness. But that was because they were tragic%2C not because of any flaw in the storytelling. %28And yes%2C I know they weren%27t written by Gryphon%2C but they%27re part of the UF universe.%29
11|1|0|||1||Mu...|Offsides||22:49:37|12/19/2006|I can%27t really answer this one%2C but only because I don%27t think any of the canned answers match my opinion.  I think that there%27s room for discussion about the possible ways that you could have handled the flow of the relationships%2C but I don%27t think that there%27s any %22right%22 or %22wrong%22 about it.  You wrote the stories as your mojo flowed them%2C and I personally think you did an excellent job.  %0D%0A%0D%0AI think Wakaba%27s reaction at the end of Vortigen%27s Lake No. 2 summed things up perfectly - Utena overcame all the trials%2C scars and bad memories of the Tournament and Akio%27s manipulations and was able to find love on her own terms.  Yes%2C Anthy had to push her%2C but that was only to make her look beyond her own limits%2C ones that she had imposed on herself because it was what she thought was expected of her.  That and I can see it was Anthy%27s way of thumbing her nose at her brother...%0D%0A%0D%0AYou keep writing them%2C I%27ll keep reading them.%0D%0A%0D%0AOffsides%0D%0A%0D%0A%26%2391%3B...%26%2393%3B in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.%0D%0A    -- David Ben Gurion%0D%0AEPU RCW %23%26pi%3B%0D%0A%23include %3Cstdsig.h%3E%0D%0A%0D%0A
12|1|0|||1||So maybe I%27m dense...|Sofaspud||01:28:36|12/20/2006|... but I dunno what y%27all are talking about.%0D%0A%0D%0ACould we maybe get a link of some sort pointing at what Laudre said%3F  I%27d like to review it myself before deciding how to vote... %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--sofaspud%0D%0A--
13|2|12|||1||RE%3A So maybe I%27m dense...|Gryphon||01:30:09|12/20/2006|%3ECould we maybe get a link of some sort pointing at what Laudre said%3F  %0D%0A%0D%0ANo%2C I can%27t be arsed to come up with an actual link%2C but I%27ll tell you where it is%3B it%27s over in the annotations thread for S2M6.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
14|3|13|||1||RE%3A So maybe I%27m dense...|Sofaspud||02:14:10|12/20/2006|Thanks for the directions%2C Gryphon.%0D%0A%0D%0AOk%2C so%2C I typed up a bunch of stuff here%2C and really%2C most of it doesn%27t belong.  I%27ll go put it in that other thread where context might make it more clear.%0D%0A%0D%0AMy votes for %235.%0D%0A%0D%0A--sofaspud%0D%0A--
15|1|0|||||Seems to be the season for it...|WyrdDragon||03:28:56|12/21/2006|But I%27ve been re-reading the Symphony too.%0D%0A%0D%0AI went and looked at Laudre%27s comments. %0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m in the %22He doesn%27t get it%22 camp%2C but... Dude%27s allowed his opinions. %0D%0A%0D%0ANowhere is it written that thou shalt like every word the chief and crew type. Personally%2C there are some parts that I prefer not to re-read and there are some that I favour more others.%0D%0A%0D%0AMy own two pence on the C-U-A triad. It was only on this read through%2C and thanks to the annotations%2C that it sunk in how long Anthy has wanted said relationship %28for various values of wanted%29. Originally%2C I only started seeing the signs in For Tomorrow. They were pretty much neon holosigns at that point. Now I can see the signs right from Anthy%27s arrival in Asgard.%0D%0A%0D%0A
16|1|0|||||Good Lord Almighty%2C someone fetch the shotgun|kairos||05:35:57|12/21/2006|I%27m in the %22Fuck no. Fuck him.%22 camp%2C myself. And I%27ve a message for Laudre and any other members of the Phantom Naysayers%3A%0D%0A%0D%0APoliteness matters%2C dipshits.%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t care if you feel strongly about the issue. I don%27t care if it%27s emotionally charged for you. If you can%27t communicate your point in a calm%2C well-mannered fashion%2C you might as well go home now. Failing that%2C pick up a copy of %22How to Win Friends and Influence People%22 and pay attention to the tips it offers. Maybe you don%27t care if Gryphon is your friend%2C but you sure care about influencing him to see your point. Or if you don%27t%2C you%27re just wanking off in public%2C in Gryphon%27s space%2C and that%27s just downright inappropriate.%0D%0A%0D%0AOf course%2C none of that%27s gonna help overly much if you are also %5Bb%5Dwrong%5B%2Fb%5D in addition to being rude%2C the way Laudre is. Other people have made most of the points that I wanted to make%2C but I will say this%3A There is a %5Bb%5Dworld%5B%2Fb%5D of difference between manipulating people and giving advice %28even rather forceful advice%29%2C trusting in the love you share and the knowledge they have that you would never willingly hurt them to make everything work out.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn other words%2C intentions matter%2C as much as actions do. Sometimes life hands you a curveball. Other times everything works itself out for you. But it%27s what you chose to believe in and chose to stand for that will damn or redeem you.
17|1|0|||||Wow. What a schmuck.|SneakyPete||12:35:13|12/21/2006|Having now %2Aread%2A Laudre%27s comments%2C can I change my vote from %22live and let live%22 to %22F%2Ack him up the ass with a sequoia%22%3F
18|2|17|||||RE%3A Wow. What a schmuck.|Croaker||13:04:58|12/21/2006|I%27m with Pete. Oh%2C and don%27t bother to remove the bark first....
19|3|18|||||RE%3A Wow. What a schmuck.|trboturtle||14:14:38|12/21/2006|I don%27t disagree with the belief that laurie is wrong%2C I do disagree with the vehment reaction his posts on this matter have caused. Could laurie had been a little less condecending%3F Yes. Does he deserve the anger he caused%3F Maybe. Does he deserve the threats like the one above leveled at him%3F No.%0D%0A%0D%0ACome on%2C people -- EPU is a labor of love that most of us enjoy%2C but in the big world view%2C these stories are not going to change our lives. They are%2C for the most part%2C an incredible mix of people%2C places%2C and things from a large number of sources that somehow holds together. That is a tribute to the writers at EPU.%0D%0A%0D%0Alaurie%27s statements need to be challeged -- but heaping personal abuse on laurie is not the way to go. So%2C let%27s stay away from the physical threats. Debate is heathly as long as it doesn%27t denegrate into personal attacks. We%27re better then that....%0D%0A%0D%0AAt this time of the year%2C peace should be at the forefront of our minds.%0D%0A%0D%0ACraig